Introducing the NEW +++ ProCap36 +++ Product Line-Up!

jacksonbrown

@Lloyd said: The flow directors are not really needed as you can simply offset the plate above and the reflux will land between the caps below.

This is what I was thinking of doing on a four inch tray. Three per tray and offset them from the tray above and below.

Would three on a 4” tray be enough or are these caps just too big for 4”, also what’s the OD?

Will you be doing different size caps or just different arrangements depending on tray size.

Lloyd

Hi @jacksonbrown you're correct, 3 ProCap36 on a 4" plate. They are called 36 because the crown is 36mm diameter and should easily be suitable for up to 12" columns. Bigger than 12" and we may need to make ProCap52 or whatever it works out to but that's somewhere down the road.

jacksonbrown

It looks like I might end up with a bit of a trap in the middle if I was to do that.

It might be better to run two per plate, 50mm apart? Then alternating 90° per plate would keep the plate flushing nicely, or not :-??

Is there a power per cap figure/range or are there too many possible variables at play to give one?

So no plans for a smaller unit? What size holes need to be cut?

Myles

I am designing for 3 procaps but originally started with a 5" column and then reduced it down for a better fit. At the moment it is about 4.8". 3 on a 4" plate looks a bit tight to me.

Also my plate is an irregular hexagonal and not round, but this is deliberately as a means to enable the use of 3" brass ferules and SGK on each chamber. It makes accomodating 3 procaps a bit easier.

Lloyd

I have no plans for a smaller ProCap. The hole size for the plate is 23.2mm and 1.5Kw per cap seems about right but the testing has been done on a 5" Crystal Dragon. The power that you choose will need to be adjusted for the "many possible variables at play", as you said. The scale seems off a bit in your drawings above, is the plate 107.5mm? Or the visible 97.6mm when fitted inside a bubble tee?

Myles

When Lloyd first told me about the procaps, 4" plates were what I looked at. However, thar was mixing 1 procap in the centre with conventional caps around it. There are many other configurations available if you start with the premis of replacing the downcomer(s) on a conventional SD cap plate with procaps. On a column smaller than 5" it is difficult to justify the need to use ALL procaps. :))

jacksonbrown

101.6, it was a bit of a WAG. I figured it was just 2mm wall dairy tube and the OD would be enough overhang. So in actual fact there would be a bit less space than shown I guess. I really like the idea of mixing them up Myles. Do you guys get the plates laser cut to order or could I get it done local? What thickness would I have to use?

Myles

I don't know how Lloyd does it - probably punched with a press. IIRC the recomended plate thjckness is 1.5 mm.

For just a few plates I intend to do it by hand, but for producing a lot, I would probably have them cut by water jet.

captainshooch

@jacksonbrown , @Lloyd , I like the idea of 3 caps per plate on a 4" plate. If I could get 4 undrilled 4" plates and 12 caps from @Smaug I can put them in my CD and throw up to a max of 16.5 kw at it and really run em hard. The only change to @jacksonbrown drawing I would do is to pull in the caps closer to the center of the plate so the gaps between the caps and the walls is the same as the gap between each cap.

Myles

You certainly can fit 3 procaps in a 4" plate. It is just my opinion that the spacing is a bit tight. It seems to me that the active area on the plates outside the caps is.a bit low. Now if Lloyd ever chooses to develop the bigger procap that has occasionally be mentioned then a single 54 mm cap in a 4" column would be a serious contender.

Law_Of_Ohms

@Myles @captainhooch @jacksonbrown

Does it look like this?
HAHAHA

jacksonbrown

Maybe something a bit more like this?

Send the flow from the ProCap straight to the wall underneath.

I only guessed the size of the standard caps 25OD/15 hole? The rest is to scale.

jacksonbrown

LOO, would love to see some vid of that thing bubbling away. That's exactly what I was thinking initially.

Plate looks thick though. I usually work off 1.6mm gasket thickness so a plate thicker than that might cause problems with sealing I would think unless you step the edge. I have some 4" orifice blanks like this, 6mm plate but the lip is only 1.2mm so they sit in the fitting nicely.

captainshooch

yeah @Law_Of_Ohms , clone it times four and send em to me :D

Law_Of_Ohms

Custom plates is something that we can offer easily in the Australian market.

1. We need organize it through Punkin (he doesn't know yet)
2. They would need to be made from 1.5mm stainless steel.
3. You would need to buy a minimum of 5 plates.
4. A bulk buy would decrease the cost significantly.

captainshooch

Thanks @Law_Of_Ohms . I am in the USA will get in touch with @Smaug on Monday.

punkin

I have 4" plates coming from Lloyd same as LoO has shown via express.

Law_Of_Ohms

jacksonbrown

I looked at that layout but if the plates are alternating 180° up the column, where do you direct the condensate and how would it flow across the plate to the ProCap. I'm not saying I'm right but that's the reason I laid it out the way I did and I didn't want to create a trap in the center. What is the hole and OD size of the normal caps?

grim

Given typical tray operation regimes and typical reflux ratios, it's highly unlikely that liquid on small trays will ever be 'trapped' based on the geometry.

I suspect that as tray diameter falls, so does any potential gradient on the tray, such that for small columns, the tray liquid is nearly 99% consistent with no such gradient across the tray. Even for trays that force cross-flow. The agitation and liquid movement is just too high to allow any realistic gradient to present itself.

Also, as reflux increases, dwell time on the tray is reduced further. Lower dwell times mean faster exchange of liquid through the tray, again lowering any potential gradient.

The cap itself does not present a complete blockage to liquid or flow, in many cases, as cap size increases, the potential for liquid to occupy the space between the caps and the risers increases. The cap slots do not function in a way the presents a perfect seal from liquid. So when looking at a tray design, visualize based on the risers, not the caps.

I know there is a big focus on cross-flow due to industrial literature, but realize the scale at which they are designing to, where column diameters are measured in meters, and trays have individual man hole sized access.

I'm not sure why there is a big focus on "efficiency" at our scale, efficiency gains at our scale will result in nearly immeasurable differences. Will requiring 100 watts more power to achieve a given speed output at a given abv make any realistic difference? Probably not. Will requiring one additional plate to hit your ideal output ABV really cause a problem? Probably not.

I would argue that the most important factor for the hobby and micro distiller is not efficiency (as measured by energy usage or separation), it's flexibility. Flexibility and Efficiency are always at odds here. Every increase in efficiency results in a narrower set of operating conditions to meet that efficiency. I don't want efficiency at the cost of flexibility.

Smaug

Really insightful Grim.

At this scale much of what gets debated and theorized is often minutia. Of course best practices are best but best practices can vary depending on any number of variables,,,,,, requisite amount of flexibility being an important variable for many of the little guys on a shoe string budget.

Myles

I agree with Grim. On a small plate it is so turbulent that flow across the plate is probably not that important. With that last plate example put up by Loo, just direct the reflux to the centre, or to the opposite side of the column to the procap. It probably won't make much difference. I would be tempted to just offset the plates by 180 degrees and not bother with the reflux diverter. Do the existing 4" plates have the cap spacings neccesary to simply substitute a procap for a downcommer?

Law_Of_Ohms

Do the existing 4" plates have the cap spacings neccesary to simply substitute a procap for a downcommer?

@Myles - No.

grim

Is a single pro cap downcomer sufficient in this scenario? I don't have the exact measurements, but was using 18mm diameter for my own calcs.

Myles

Interesting question, when in use on a standard 4" bubble cap plate, what flow rate can you achieve through the downcommer before your plate floods. In reality do you ever get to that point during a normal run?

captainshooch

@punkin said: I have 4" plates coming from Lloyd same as LoO has shown via express.

@Lloyd are these 4" ProCap plates going to be available in the US as well?

Lloyd

Talk to @Smaug and make him order them. EU and AUS are getting theirs soon but Larry is reluctant to order them because at 4" they really do fall into the non-pro category so the classic bubble cap is more than just fine, its very "classic" and proven.
You'll need to convince him.
The ProCaps were designed with pro customers in mind and 4" is not quite pro, really. Not sure 5" is either but I only produced the 5" plates with the ProCaps (because it's my personal still) and also made 6", 8" and even 12" plates available for the new caps.
Make him order an express shipment by actually placing an order. Make him do it.

Everyone has a limited budget and tries to do their best with available resources and future sales are always hard to predict. He stocks 1000L steam jacketed boilers and is counting through many thousands of items right now from his latest sea freight and its never easy to predict the demand of any one item. His resources (money) is strained because of the massive shipment that he just received and he was forced to trim the fat and elected not to stock the 4" ProPlate until forced to do so.

Up to you to make it happen.
You order it from him and he will have to get the parts to you. I type this not more than 6 meters away from the plates that you want but I'm half a world and a distributor away.

You just need to order them by email from him if you are not able to so from his website.

We all thought at the beginning that the ProCaps were only needed for the larger professional stills but it seems artisans also want to play with them. That's a very good thing because artisans bring so much to the table with very real run data that, I think, is useful for the pros as well as the entire community.

It also gives Mama a path to a low cost bubble column distillation unit that we hadn't predicted but is maybe obtainable by integrating a single ProCap within a very small Crystal Dragon. That's a work in progress and progress is slow because its all about keeping the total cost low and thats a challenge.

captainshooch

@Lloyd I can certainly understand and relate to the money thing which is why I was looking to play with the new caps with my existing columns (4") just for the sake of comparison. I plan to build a 4 plate CD with the ProCaps36 and do some playing. I certainly can not afford a whole new 5" or 6" column and I am definitely far, far from been a pro but some things we don't really need but still fill the urge to tinker with such a the CD. My bubble T's on the Dash2 were sufficient, yet, as you know, I ended up with the Crystal Giant :D Everyone that looks at it is certainly impressed and the performance is outstanding. If I can get close to the output rate I am getting from the tall CD by using a smaller CD with the pro caps, or even better rate then I can save a bit of time doing a run and assembling and disassembling. Experimenting with stuff like this is a big part of my endeavors in this hobby. Who knows, maybe someday I'll consider taking the plunge....not anytime soon, lots to learn still!

Perhaps he does not have quite the demand to warrant the order ATM but I am sure once they are out and reports start coming in that demand is certain to rise.

Lloyd

And to make matters worse, he reports that all of the 5" dephlegmators were accidentally made in 6". Considering the scale of this last shipment that's a very low error rate but it puts a damper on the launch of the 5" column.

@Smaug told me that he'd work up an express order after getting everything counted into inventory and I'm certain he'll order some of the 4" ProCap plates but @captainshooch's Crystal Giant could consume all of those :-O

captainshooch

Oh no, the Crystal Giant is staying as is! This is for a separate 4 plate CD.