3 Chamber Still

Bolverk

Right! The amount of knowledge stored here is absolutely amazing.

I'll keep an eye our for that, thanks!

punkin

It's @Moonshine and and @Sunshine that power the forum. @Smaug and I just contribute.

Moonshine

@punkin said: It's Moonshine and and Sunshine that power the forum. Smaug and I just contribute.

The power of the StillDragon® Organization, stronger than ever after almost 10 YEARS (anniversary coming up next week)! 3:-O

punkin

That's nearly a life sentence here. :))

DonMateo

I have a temperature question about the pilot three chamber still. What kind of temperatures are you getting inside those chambers ? The reason why I ask is I am looking if I am going to put access ways in mine and what size they could be and they all have pressure limits. Now the lower chamber should get up to about 110 to 125C so that should be about .8 to 1 Bar.

This is what I am getting in my inner chamber of my BM boiler. I would assume the intermediate chamber will be getting also at least 110 to 120 C as its not open to the atmosphere, so those will need a door that can take up to 1 bar. The top chamber is open to the atmosphere, via the condensor, so I would assume the temp there will only be 98 Deg C, this is where I am which is at 900m elevation. The solution is to not put in an access door or access hole into any of the chambers with the exception the top heat exchanger chamber I would like to have access to all of the lower chambers to clean it out. I intend to be putting lots of Irish whiskeys with oats and rye in it and so they are going to be greasy and thick so I think I am regularly going to have to give them a scrub.

The solution is to just put in a couple of doors that are rated at 2 bar but they big ones are pretty expensive.

Any ideas ?

DonMateo

I think I have answered my own question. The bottom chamber will have to have a door that can handle 2.5 Bar and the top two 1.6bar

Bolverk

Question for you guys... if you only had room for 3 chambers would you do the one like Vulcan in Barbados where it's preheater, beer chamber, boiler or like the early 3 chamber were it doesn't use a preheater but there are 2 beer chambers and a boiler?

Smaug

The preheat feature obviously adds an additional up front expense. But I would also say that labor costs will nearly always exceed the cost of the equipment very quickly.

Bolverk

Ok i gotcha , that makes sense.

The dilemma is that the 2 chamber design will have less pressure from water column on the boiler so it won't hit the same kind of temps as the 3 chamber.

So the initial thought is to take 3 20l kegs and stack them to make the individual chambers. And I can do either two of the designs above; with the 2 chamber id have about 18-20" of water column, with the 3 chamber no HX I'd get about 36-40" or I can use 10l kegs and do 4 full chambers but at a significant reduction in water column only about 18-20".

Bolverk

Its going down!

Bolverk

Interview with Todd... this was pretty good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEmx06E2rtk

DonMateo

I saw that. Leopold just released a new video. Not many new nuggets of knowledge but nice to see the overall dedication to quality and flavor.

Bolverk

Got a link to it? The newest one on his YouTube is like a year old

DonMateo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x93ZBxaKiac

Bolverk

Nice, thanks man!

Did you happen to catch that he said the mash was in the still for a total of 90 minutes? His first video he said 90 minutes per chamber... this coincidences with that podcast where they are saying 30 minutes per chamber for a stripping run.

richard

Very nice video, a passionate person. I first saw it about 3 days back.

Very interesting for me is their barrel strength. They dilute and fill the barrel at 50% ABV.

The other interesting observation is that they grind their malted barley to flour.

DonMateo

I am a big believer in barreling at between 50 to 54 % especially if you live in a high and dry environment.

A couple my observations are I was surprised they grind to flour but that makes sense if they have a grain bill that has a lot of corn in it. I normally grind to a level 3 or 2 but if your using barley you can do that.

@grim any comments on that?

Hey @richard. How is your distillery going mi old china? Are you producing yet?? Getting any power from ESKOM?

@Bolverk Yes if you look at the pincock and Holt paper most three chamber stills run at between 60 to 90 mins or at least they did 100 years ago. I would guess that its a function as to whether your stripping or doing a single pass with the thumper. I want a three chamber still.

grim

We love low barrel entry proofs.

55% is my absolute favorite. We've done a number in the 50-55% range, and don't necessarily think you need to go all the way down to 50%, but I can see the benefit.

Bottling near or at barrel dump proof is part of the magic there.

On the milling, we mill to flour basically. We run a tight screen in the hammer mill because it's a pain to swap out the smaller screen when we are milling in the rye (which easily falls through the mill without getting milled). Running the big Kason with a tight wedge wire screen lets us easily separate post-distillation. Would be very easy to run our mash through a continuous rig.

DonMateo

Yes I agree. I dont barrel at over 55%. On my spirit runs I will finish at about 51 to 52% most runs and then I leave it. Six months later it will be down to 48%. Hey @grim any comment on the grind size. I use level 3 or between 2 to 3 because its the easiest to Lauter. Grinding down to flour increases yield of course and you need that with Corn but you have to have the gear for it. My gear is very low tech.

grim

If you are using barley, I've found that if you roller mill the barley to leave the husk intact, you can grind your corn finer than you normally would, as the husk significantly aids separation.

DMdistilling

@Smaug said: And the other side.

Hey @Smaug, I really like your design! I was wondering what the surface area of the coil is in the top chamber for the preheater. My still will be 1300mm in diameter and 900mm high. According to my simulation, I got around 0.95sqm for the coil. I plan to have it made with a 2-inch copper pipe that's 6m long, but since I think it will be around 2 turns, could you tell me what you're getting? This information would be very helpful.

Also, I have a question about the pipe coming from the sides. Is it used to control the vacuum pressure in the chambers? If so, how do you control the flow? Do you use solenoid valves or another method? Thanks, mate!

Smaug

On the drawing here (2000L chambers), the preheater coil has 62.8 sq. ft. (5.8 sq. meters) worth of surface area if my math is correct.

The piping on the left-hand side is the vent that allows for smooth liquid transfer.

We will incorporate automatic valves and and PLC control to handle all of the liquid transfer duties.

DonMateo

Thats what I thought. If I remember my hydraulics design classes from construction school. Its a vent stack with valves for each chamber. You will have to open them all prior to draining from one chamber to the next and they will be the last thing you close before turn the power on.

Smaug

@DonMateo said: Thats what I thought. If I remember my hydraulics design classes from construction school. Its a vent stack with valves for each chamber. You will have to open them all prior to draining from one chamber to the next and they will be the last thing you close before turn the power on.

100%

DonMateo

I must have been paying attention to my plumbing design lectures. Not as much as the building Acoustics design lecture. The guys name was Ron Rumble. Yes his business was called Rumble Sound Engineering Solutions. You couldnt make that up.

Bolverk

Found another interview with Todd... slowly we'll start to understand how to drive this still.

Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYGzyPXQjUI

Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7efKxyqaEWk

In part 1 Todd talks about ordering another one from Vendome, this one going to be 3x the size, itll do 6 barrels a day.

DMdistilling

@Smaug said: On the drawing here (2000L chambers), the preheater coil has 62.8 sq. ft. (5.8 sq. meters) worth of surface area if my math is correct.

The piping on the left-hand side is the vent that allows for smooth liquid transfer.

We will incorporate automatic valves and and PLC control to handle all of the liquid transfer duties.

Hello @Smaug,

I hope you're doing well. I've been following your discussions about the distillation setup and find your insights extremely valuable. I have a couple of questions regarding your setup, particularly about the coil and its heat transfer capabilities.

I understand the importance of not having all the ethanol condense inside the pipe, aiming for a condensation rate of about 10-15%. This is why I'm curious about the surface area you've estimated for your coil. Could you kindly share what size of pipe you're using for the coil? Is it a 2" inch pipe? Given the surface area, it seems like the coil in your condenser would be around 1387 meters of pipe. How did you arrive at this specific size?

Also, in my design, I haven't incorporated pipes on the side for moving the wash. Instead, I've opted for a conic bottom with a 4-inch knife valve for control, positioned at the side. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this approach.

Thank you for taking the time to read my query. Any insights or advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.

DMdistilling

@DMdistilling said: Thank you for taking the time to read my query. Any insights or advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.

i wrote wrong number that coil at 2" pipe will be 33m lenghth no 1387m typyng mistake

Smaug

@grim said: There is an old chamber still running in the islands, it wasn't just the Northeast Rye distillers that used them.

The comments in the video about using the still for bourbon production surprised me. The vibe during the discussion felt like there would be some risk or doubt in doing a bourbon run? Feels to me like It doesn't seem at all to be a stretch or any kind of risk to use this design for bourbon.

Seems perfectly logical that if on the one hand it produces a "nice" rye,,,and coincidentally also produces a "nice" rum ( two completely contrasting spirits),,,,what is it about the the design that would have anyone doubting that it couldn't produce a "nice" bourbon?

Bolverk

@Smaug since the 3 chamber is an oil extraction machine I would guess the amount of oil in corn could be a concen... it could be too oily? Although maybe it depends on the corn variety?

If you look at the Crampton and Tolman papers 1 of the 13 bourbon participants was making bourbon on a 3 chamber and 2 of the 3 corn whiskey participants were made on a 3 chamber.