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3 Chamber Still

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  • edited July 2021

    Looks to me like it's the spent beer charge in the lowest chamber that is boiled, flashed and used as the heating media for the charge in the second chamber. Top chamber is just a preheater to enhance delta T.

    I'd want a bit more rectification on my finished spirit I'm pretty sure. Seems they eluded to doing a separate finishing run.

    Doesn't appear to be live steam injection. That based on what I see would render lower abv. I wouldn't want to be the lucky fuck that gets to clean those steam coils.

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  • edited July 2021

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  • @grim said: Anyone with two thumpers want to just try the process? It’ll be pretty messy, but you can closely approximate this easily.

    I spoke to Smaug about this & SD's Caribbean rum still. I think it would be a little different as the retorts aren't as deep so you wouldn't be able to generate the pressure/temps that the 3 chamber still would. It probably wouldn't far off though. If properly designed it could create very similar effects.

    Thinking about it if you only did 2 "Chambers" you could reshape the upper chamber so that it is 2x taller but skinnier. Water column pressure is based on depth, not width/volume, so as long as you had the height you would build the pressure & temp in the lower chamber. It would also give more time for bubble collapse. If the "secret" to the 3 Chamber still is the extra pressure/temp releasing super deep tails from the bottom chamber then I don't know the point of the middle chamber is. I think it would be better to skip it and let the super deep stuff hit the fresh wash. Think of the tall/skinny chamber as a gigantic bubble plate. Could be done as a side column too.

    So @Smaug - if you build this for me do I get a buy one get one free with my other still???? Also is my still here yet???? (Ha!)

  • Hydrostatic Pressure - Depth and hydrostatic pressure @ The Engineering ToolBox

    A 10ft high column would require ~5psi of pressure to push through it. That's well within the limits of a low pressure boiler and also most still boilers.

  • edited July 2021

    I was wondering if an alternative to steam injection wouldn't be turning the bottom section into a bain-marie boiler but also with two immersion elements to avoid the need for a steam pump?

    Steam pumps where I live are really expensive.

    This pod cast is done by a guy who definitely sounds like he has operated one of these things before:

    # 08 – 3-Chamber Still Podcast @ BoozeWerks

    And he talks about the stand dimensions for a 66 gallon per chamber still. One thing I note from a couple of the older documents is that they do say in some cases depending on the distillery the three chambers were just used for stripping runs. As well some were used as a spirit still for the second run which makes sense if you need the extra pressure to bring over the oils you might not get that extra pressure in a normal pot still.

  • edited July 2021

    Thumper liquid bed depth can be managed to replicate the chamber still pressure. Pretty sure Todd said about 4psi.

    But the difference between the chamber still and a thumper (or double thumper) set up is the chamber still uses gravity to to transfer the mass the the next level below. So that creates a more user friendly flow process.

    The other difference is the order of flow. Typically we would see (starting from the heat source) with the thumper system: beer / low wines / high wines / finished distillate.

    With the chamber still we see (starting from the heat source) spent beer / beer / distillate.

    The end user could replicate the flow process of the 3 chamber with a thumper set up, but it would add more material handling. The material handling would be more chaotic.

    And the last difference is that the chamber still has a smaller footprint than a comparably sized thumper outfit.

    Upon inception, I wonder which of the above observations carried the most weight with respect to the actual business of spirits production vs the creation of a superior finished product? Todd did say that Hiram Walker did have the 3 chamber as well as many other stills.

    Without reading any of the history, I would bet that the original intended purpose was to enhance the efficiency of the thumper / retort style system?

    I'm sure they were funded well enough to mock up a smaller pilot still to test its operation. But I'd also bet they had no Idea how the finished distillate would ultimately taste?

    Just thinking out loud is all.

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  • edited July 2021

    I think there needs to be a bigger discussion around direct steam injection as potentially being a very important component of this technique.

    We know from steam distillation techniques (eg. botanical extractions) that the dynamics of this type of distillation are very different, as they tend to carry through far more heavy components, oils, fats, etc - compared to traditional beverage techniques. It's not just about one heating technique vs. another.

  • @grim said: I think there needs to be a bigger discussion around direct steam injection as potentially being a very important component of this technique.

    We know from steam distillation techniques (eg. botanical extractions) that the dynamics of this type of distillation are very different, as they tend to carry through far more heavy components, oils, fats, etc - compared to traditional beverage techniques. It's not just about one heating technique vs. another.

    Yeah the discussion is heading a couple different directions.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • Water Boiling Points at Higher Pressure: Online Water Boiling Point Calculator @ The Engineering ToolBox

    Add 14.7 (standard atmospheric pressure @ sea level) to what ever pressure you want to use - 5psi would be 19.7 PSIA for the calculator - that's 108.4c or 227.1f

  • @grim said: I think there needs to be a bigger discussion around direct steam injection as potentially being a very important component of this technique.

    That's something I picked up from a previous interview he did. He stated it was the steam blasting the rye grain that did the magic.

  • There is only one way to find out really.

  • @SingleMaltYinzer said: That's something I picked up from a previous interview he did. He stated it was the steam blasting the rye grain that did the magic.

    Not hard to understand. Think about what 3 psi can accomplish in the kitchen from the heating perspective and related actual cooking.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • With the right automation, this could be a relatively simple semi-continuous stripping rig too.

  • Thats what I was thinking. Wifi controlled valves. After a few times you would have the volumes and run times dialled in pretty well. Add temperature controls and it could be simple.

  • With a PLC it wouldn't be that hard at all. Though the PLC / HMI route that is UL approved (here in the states) is nothing to sneeze at.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • @Smaug ... Not that hugely difficult if you know what you are doing but depending on complexity of what all you wish to include is what takes time. On my automated PLC & HMI controlled still I have been working on this programme for +2 years and only now am I near the end. Yes maybe self inflicted because of its complexity but it none the less takes time.

  • edited July 2021

    Certification for sale is usually the challenge in more regulated arenas. Doing this with classified electronics is easily 10x the price. Though, do you really need much more than a set of pneumatically controlled valves on remote timers?

  • @grim said: do you really need much more than a set of pneumatically controlled valves on remote timers?

    To do that I would not even bother. Where PLC control comes into itself is with all input monitoring, Numerous recipe selections, variety of process options, fermentation, PID temperature control, automatic cuts based on barometric pressure and temperature, VFD's etc.

  • And once the programming is done it can then be easily reproduced.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • Jamaican dude was like - I just turn this valve here, and then that one there, and repeat it a few times, it's that easy.

  • edited July 2021

    @grim said: This was posted over at ADI -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi5WzVGBkuw

    Operating 3 chamber in the Caribbean. One of the only original operating 3 chambers in the world.

    Interesting description of operations. Overall this is a great 30 minutes. 5 minutes in if you don’t have time for the whole thing.

    I'm kinda floored that the basic maintenance around these distilleries has been really very derelict?

    It's no wonder Punkin is skeer'd of the muck pit.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • edited July 2021

    Fermentation room at Clarendon/Moneymusk - lol

    Last cleaned in the 1800s, when it was installed.

    Is that a femur I see floating in the tank?

  • I was thinking you know how much would a water blaster cost to buy and use ? It might make it a little bit more tourist friendly. I use mine all the time squirting down my tanks and boilers. ( I turn off the electricity first)

  • I'm not scared, i just respect the things that can kill me and stay well away from them (aside from big, fast motorcycles)

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • edited July 2021

    Oh hell no, clean that place and you’ll ruin the rum.

    I have been dying to go though. Might have to make a special trip to Jamaica.

    Lallemand did a conference there a few years back, that would have been epic to attend.

  • edited July 2021

    @grim said: Oh hell no, clean that place and you’ll ruin the rum.

    I have been dying to go though. Might have to make a special trip to Jamaica.

    Lallemand did a conference there a few years back, that would have been epic to attend.

    Oh yeah yeah I totally get that it is partially the micro flora (and stuff) that makes the rum distinctive. And also a disruption of any of that ambient funk would possibly contaminate the the ecological balance that exists within the immediate environment. But things like holes in the roof coverings, and general condition of the grounds seems pathetic.

    Also, do them valve's look operable at all? Em,,,,sure they does......Just looks like a catastrophic failure waiting to happen in most areas.

    Hay! You messin with me ain't ya?

    Punkin,,,,its ok to admin yew skeer'd lol.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • In any case. It just looks like they are squeezing every square inch of profit out of the physical plant with not much regard for stewardship.

    I'm probably wrong. Usually am.....

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • This is true, but the same time they are running fairly modern/new stills at their other properties in Jamaica. Seems crazy to see them operate so differently, nearly side by side. Milk every penny for sure.

    Sure, you do see a lot of “island ingenuity” there. Fix it and make do with what you’ve got? Because getting anything else will take months.

  • I notice with these stills they are not direct injecting steam but using the bottom chamber and heating it with a steam coil, which would have the same effect as a bain marie boiler, especially if you can get the boiler jacket temp up to about 110deg.

  • edited July 2021

    Better photo - Check out those weighted valves for the gravity feeds.

    Looks like they did some refurb - some new steam trim.

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