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3 Chamber Still

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  • @grim said: Been trying to think of a way to experiment with this, there really isn't any quick way to rig up this style.

    Best I can come up with is cutting and welding 4 identical shaped kegs on top of each other. It's just a huge amount of fabrication work for a test.

    If my TIG was better, I'd give it a go. I should bring the welder back to my house so I can screw around. Would probably take me 3 months, but at the end of it, maybe I'd be a decent welder.

    Problem is, you only got one shot to make it all work, there isn't any "fixing".

    Well,, could go 3 kegs and skip the preheater. That will help reduce some time.

    But yeah, quick and dirty is still a fair amount of work. Have to set up for the vents too which is a pita.

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  • Maybe have SD make the spools with flange ends for you, along with some large flat plates that get sandwiched between sections, and then all you have to do is the plumbing on the plates themselves... of course this is coming from the guy who has a not completed his latest project, soo...

  • I thought of making 12" clamp sections and stacking them. The other thing idea i am going to do is make s deep bed column id a bubble cap that is 1.2m high inside an 8" tube. Thats should have the same increase in temp due to liquid head.

  • I think 16-24" would be minimum, and the flange style allows for thicker flat plate between flanges for modularity. 16" is basically a beer keg, and a 16"x24" section with 2 flanges and a 6" DIN window might not really be much more than having a keg modified to have 8-12" TC on each end...

  • The Keg option really is the cheapest and its a great ideam @grim. I hadnt thought of that. But I have already bought all the copper plate I need for what I want to do. The bottom section will be SS and the top three chambers will be copper with a copper condensor. Anyway Time to call my tank making mate and kick him again.

  • This looks awesome. I would love to play with it to see what it can do. I also would think about running it in reverse like a double thumper rum still - the charges would go up, not down. Way more complicated but more interesting.

    The more I think about it the more the I think the middle chamber isn't needed. By dumping the middle chamber you'll lose some pressure on the 3rd chamber changing the boiling point & the chemicals coming out of it. You could double the size of the top most chamber to make up for this. I can't think of what the middle chamber does that would benefit the process. The interesting chemicals are in the bottom chamber. They would recondense in the middle chamber and not get to the top chamber in as much concentration. If there were esterification happening though it would lower the boiling point and it would jump to the top most chamber. And it's not just esters, there may be other chemicals that react into something with a lower boiling point that would escape. Thermal decomposition may also play a part with breaking down longer chain chemicals into their constituent parts then being able to be boiled off.

    Then pressure wise - the higher the pressure the higher the boiling point some chemicals would have. That might reduce some transition from the lowest chamber to higher chambers.

    Wow this junk is complicated.

    Empirically it would be best to have samples of each chamber done during the run to see what's in there and then try to figure out what could be happening with that mix.

    With the test size still it also may not build up the pressure to mimic the full size still also. Still more interesting than a pot still though.

    Can you get tabletop versions done as decorations??? Maybe see if Lego would do one for us...

  • This looks awesome. I would love to play with it to see what it can do. I also would think about running it in reverse like a double thumper rum still - the charges would go up, not down. Way more complicated but more interesting.

    The more I think about it the more the I think the middle chamber isn't needed. By dumping the middle chamber you'll lose some pressure on the 3rd chamber changing the boiling point & the chemicals coming out of it. You could double the size of the top most chamber to make up for this. I can't think of what the middle chamber does that would benefit the process. The interesting chemicals are in the bottom chamber. They would recondense in the middle chamber and not get to the top chamber in as much concentration. If there were esterification happening though it would lower the boiling point and it would jump to the top most chamber. And it's not just esters, there may be other chemicals that react into something with a lower boiling point that would escape. Thermal decomposition may also play a part with breaking down longer chain chemicals into their constituent parts then being able to be boiled off.

    Then pressure wise - the higher the pressure the higher the boiling point some chemicals would have. That might reduce some transition from the lowest chamber to higher chambers.

    Wow this junk is complicated.

    Empirically it would be best to have samples of each chamber done during the run to see what's in there and then try to figure out what could be happening with that mix.

    With the test size still it also may not build up the pressure to mimic the full size still also. Still more interesting than a pot still though.

    Can you get tabletop versions done as decorations??? Maybe see if Lego would do one for us...

  • 9ne of the things that i worry about is how to measure abv inside each chamber. If you increase the pressure then theoretically boiling point increases. My plan is to have an electric parrot in eash chamber to detect temp and abv. Then your really going to know when each chamber is ready to drain or be discarded. I cant wait to play with one of these things. Time to kick my tank making mate again.

  • edited November 2022

    @DonMateo said: 9ne of the things that i worry about is how to measure abv inside each chamber. If you increase the pressure then theoretically boiling point increases. My plan is to have an electric parrot in eash chamber to detect temp and abv. Then your really going to know when each chamber is ready to drain or be discarded. I cant wait to play with one of these things. Time to kick my tank making mate again.

    If there is headspace in the chamber, you can measure abv by measuring vapor temp in that head space. Naturally calculations need to be made to account for pressure. I think the simplest solution is a cockvalve/sample port to draw off a sampling at each level. Though this will probably only be a good idea with rums. Grain in charges will likely clog the port.

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  • edited November 2022

    Christian, its interesting to think about the process flow if the fresh beer charge is introduced at the base chamber?

    How would that affect the rate of liquid transfer with respect to the accumulation of liquid in the middle and top chambers? In other words, would the rate of liquid accumulation be some how more retarded / difficult to manage and how much additional smearing would be introduced by having the fresh charge introduced at the back of the line when operating as a semi continuous system with direct steam injection? The system would definitely have an entirely different set of operating procedures.

    There are also 2 chamber designs. But I feel the 3 chamber has a wider operating range because it would allow for faster liquid transfer cycles without worrying about draining alcohol down the the waste stream. Also I suspect having just a bit of alcohol in the middle chamber is boosting abv and perhaps also positively influencing the flavor profile?

    Just thinking out loud is all.

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  • @smaug i was thinking that the whole thing will have to be run off temperature. The trick will be in the first run fill it with water and see what temperature it gives in each chamber. I just got another review job so I will be able to get my tank maker mate to weld up the cans at least.

  • edited November 2022

    Every historical detail I can find on the 3 chamber indicates it was run on set cycle times.

    The only way the cycling operation makes sense to me conceptually, is to think of it as distilling heads, hearts, and tails simultaneously.

    I almost want to think of this more like an anti-still, with each additional chamber acting as a -1 theoretical plate.

    Given the individual chambers are each at wildly different phases of distillation, you have a scenario where you are mixing heavies and lights in a way that's typically not seen - chambers aren't mixing like trays, since there are no downcomers, it's one way direction UP for volatiles, so you aren't going to see this thing stack up like a continuous column would, with tails falling. I think that's an important distinction - this thing is an intentional smear machine - I'll also bet cuts are largely irrelevant. It would have been easy to build this as a 3 tray continuous column, but they didn't, why?

    image

    and

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    Sure, temperatures will increase as you step down each chamber, but that's not necessarily something "controlled", unless it's how you are setting/determining time to cycle.

    That's my theory anyway...

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  • edited November 2022

    Great one from Boston Apothecary: IRS-Three-Chambered-Still-1910_Vol2No2_HM (PDF)

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  • RE: Timed runs - I believe that Leopold does 90 minute runs for their 3 Chamber still.

    Also I don't remember that paper from BA. It's freaking incredible. The charts are great. I would love to recreate those with modern gas chromatography.

    Really we should do GC-MS on every phase of production - Mashing before pitching yeast, every day in the fermentation, right before distillation, a couple of times during distillation, right before barreling, as aging progresses.

    It would be very interesting to compare similar fermenting substrates on the different stills. It would let us put more empirical evidence to what our hypothesis/myths are for each type of still.

    RE: Oxidation of the aldehydes into acids - could this be part of what airing out does to a spirit? If so would ethyl alcohol be more stable in the presence of oxygen? Otherwise you would turn more alcohol in aldehydes and leave the same issue. If the aldehydes do break down into acids it would change the pH of the distillate and increase esterification and other reactions.

  • A certain someone was telling me last week that a certain someone doesn't really make any cuts either. Even though we have read modern articles in the wild that a certain someone implied cuts were made.

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  • edited November 2022

    @grim are you implying that with each successive transfer of liquid a bit of alcohol from the above chamber gets installed into the bottom chamber?

    I feel that's how I would run it anyway. Though the final determination would be the finished proof I was shooting for.

    I do like Todd Leopold's thoughts on not letting the barrel take over so much of the profile. All of the ACSA winners this year were completely over oaked imo. I think its a bad trend.

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  • @Smaug said: How would that affect the rate of liquid transfer with respect to the accumulation of liquid in the middle and top chambers? In other words, would the rate of liquid accumulation be some how more retarded / difficult to manage and how much additional smearing would be introduced by having the fresh charge introduced at the back of the line when operating as a semi continuous system with direct steam injection? The system would definitely have an entirely different set of operating procedures.

    I would think it would the bottom chamber would give up X amount of liquid to steam, then the level above it would reabsorb some of it while also giving off X amount of its own. I don't think it would flood the middle chamber though the top chamber might a little? The weird thing is that like a double retort still the boiling point of the middle and last chambers would be higher than the steam coming in. It should cause some bubble collapse and reintegration of the components until the new boiling point is reached. The new material in the steam coming from below would decrease the boiling point of the previously distilled wash. For me the flaw with the three chamber still or thumper is that too much steam gets past the liquid and doesn't spend enough time reintegrating with the wash. Basically I would want a thumper that doesn't thump so to speak.

    @Smaug said: There are also 2 chamber designs. But I feel the 3 chamber has a wider operating range because it would allow for faster liquid transfer cycles without worrying about draining alcohol down the the waste stream. Also I suspect having just a bit of alcohol in the middle chamber is boosting abv and perhaps also positively influencing the flavor profile?

    I would think even in a 2 chamber design that you would need to heat up the lowest chamber so much there wouldn't be any alcohol left once you run a full cycle on the first chamber. If you go by Leopold the wash spends 270 minutes in the still total. If you ran a 2 chamber for 135 minutes in each chamber it's the same time. Though something this complex you would need some experience to really understand how to run it.

    I'm not sure flavor wise how it would differ from the 3 chamber. Flavor wise I would suspect either 2 or 3 chamber still would be similar to a 1.5x pot stilled spirit. The kind where they put fresh or spend wash in with low wines to increase flavor.

    @Smaug said: Just thinking out loud is all.

    That's why we're here. The SD forms is where I get to geek out the most. And I think we all know I'm a geek. At least I'm in good company here. Ha!

  • These things are modular. If you have a three chamber still you make a two chamber by taking out the internals on the third chamber. Or am i missing something.

  • @DonMateo said: These things are modular. If you have a three chamber still you make a two chamber by taking out the internals on the third chamber. Or am i missing something.

    Well the base does have the accommodation for the steam injection. But certainly you could set each chamber up identically and cap off what ever not in use.

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  • I was thinking of making the bubble tree assemly the right configuration to take it out through a manway and have it held in place with a clamp. For cleaning at least.

  • edited November 2022

    @Smaug said: grim are you implying that with each successive transfer of liquid a bit of alcohol from the above chamber gets installed into the bottom chamber?

    I do, but I think it's more than just the alcohols - but the heavier acids and other less-volatiles as well. Steam injection is also an important part of this - IMHO - steam is able to volatilize and carry congeners that boiling can not. Steam extraction still commonly used for botanical oils extraction - potentially you have a similar effect here.

  • @grim. Your a genius. I think this is absolutely spot on. This has to be the mechanism for the extraction of the oils that Leopold brothers talk about.

  • edited November 2022

    Also remember, there are no downcomers, volatiles and entrained congeners can only move upwards during distillation.

    Looking at a design like this, you wonder, what's so different. Why the hell would they set this up this way? Why go through all this work? I've heard there are some old photos of the Hiram Walker plant in Peoria that literally show the 3 chamber vulcan right next to a traditional continuous beer stripper. Nobody would have gone to that expense back then, unless there were some very material differences. I remember seeing this for the first time years back in the Seagrams distilling handbook, and thinking to myself, what the serious f*ck is going on with this thing - they absolutely had trays back then, there was no reason at all they couldn't have simply just made a 3 tray stripper, or ran the existing beer column on fewer trays, etc. etc.

    That BA article really goes into some incredible depth from an operations perspective - which I think is absolutely critical with this design. Also - look at the proof ranges they are designating as tails.

  • @grim. The ongoing discussion and the BA article have inspired me to keep kicking the shit out of my tank making mate to start fabricating mine. I wish it was SD. You guys would deliver. Latest bullshit in Argentina is you need permission for any imports, and you have to give all your USD to government before they will let you import anything. There are some industries shutting down for lack of supplies. The workers paradise. I want a 3 chamber still and then put Irish style grain whiskeys through it. Thats one of my curiosities, why they never did so, apart from tradition. Surely when three chamber still were very common in the US that they would have been known about in Scotland and Ireland. I dont think it would have made a huge difference to most Scottish whiskeys at the time as a lot of them were either single malts or made with continuous columns. Irish grain whiskeys on the other hand would have worked very well with a three chamber still.

  • edited November 2022

    Some more good content and bibliography here: Three Chamber Still @ Ved Elven Distillery

  • I have been thinking about operating one of these with the bottom chamber just putting water in that and using heating elements as opposed to putting wash in the bottom chamber. Just thinking out loud in that regard it would operate as a two chamber still and not so much as a three chamber still. The reason was I dont have steam generators right now. Its on my list of things to get as I think with the kind of volumes I am going to have in each chamber, 300l, I could get away with 12 or 16 kw of steam generators which is still small gear.
    Operating as a two chamber of course my idea was run it until the chamber two was stripped and then drain it away, ie dump it before dropping the next charges down.

  • Also what I have been struggling with is that I want the simple version, ie the stripping still version. But I was trying to figure out how to run that as a spirit stillusing the same equipment. The only method I have thought of is put low wines in say chamber 2 and 3, 50/50 and then pump as much steam as possible through them. To try and keep the temperature as high as possible. How this would then effect the final ABV of the final spirit I havent figured out yet. Just thinking out loud here.

  • edited December 2022

    It is done!

    Hopefully we'll have it available in time for this forthcoming trade show.

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  • Its fantastic Smaug. When are you going to get someone to run it and see how it works ???

  • I think we are going to put it on Indian River Distillery's floor for the road testing after the trade show season.

    They are just up the road a piece and have plenty of power to also drive the steam generator.

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