StillDragon North America Bulletin Board

Smaug

No downcomer. There would be pressure in the column affecting that flow rate.

I am referring to an external drain that returns an accumulation of reflux back to the kettle.

Not sure I understand your question jbeirling? All column bottoms are sent back to the kettle as they would be if the column sat by itself on top of the kettle in a more traditional orientation. But with out the same heat loss that would be experienced with a more typical side column set up.

jacksonbrown

@Smaug said: There would be pressure in the column affecting that flow rate.

Boiler you mean, your vapor line should balance that out but I don't know how much back pressure that 'whiskey hat' creates.
What that guy doing? Is it just like an onion?

jbierling

Yes, I understand that the bottoms are returned but wouldn't there be a significant volume in the tube? Isn't the liquid being returned lighter than what's in the pot? What forces the lightest fractions down the tube, out the bottom and back into the pot to be redistilled? Wouldn't the heavier stuff exit first? Or maybe that's desired and the lightest fractions revaporize in the return tube and go directly up in the column.

My question isn't specific to this design except that the volume seems great dispite the short path. Maybe that's a good thing.

Smaug

Ah I see what you are asking @jbierling.

The volume in the drain will be at the same liquid level as the rest of the liquid in the kettle.

Any alcohol in the form of bottoms will be 100% infinitely miscible with water. So one of two things will happen as bottoms drain down.

There may or may not be some form of stratification if there are higher alcohols within the drain straw. The straw will be submerged in the heated environment as well as the base connected directly to the kettle. So heat loss will be minimal compared to a more conventional side column drain back. As the run progresses, the kettle temps will naturally increase. In which case any higher alcohols within the straw may re vaporize and travel back up the straw and into the column base as we already have determined that two way flow within the 2" diameter straw will be possible....It's big.

Or the liquid will drain down the straw, re dilute, and ultimately recycle back to the whiskey hat as the remaining alcohol within the kettle will also do. Either way, it's not going to affect the operation of the column that would otherwise be sending bottoms directly back to the kettle as seen on any column mounted directly to a kettle.

Smaug

By the way,

We have two extra passes to the US Bevex show next week in Washington DC. The show is Wednesday-Thursday of next week.

Hit me up if you want to attend.

grim

I don't think there would be any kind of meaningful stratification in the drain tube, you certainly wouldn't have a situation where lighter molecular weight components are sitting in the tube, where heavier ones are falling out of the bottom.

The rate of diffusion in boiling liquids is incredibly fast (remember the old science lab experiment on Brownian Motion, food color in hot liquid and cold liquid), and you also have the secondary factor of cooler liquids (more dense) sinking in hotter liquids. A better assumption is that the straw contents are perfectly mixed, especially considering that it's a 2" od.

Put a drop of food coloring into a stockpot of boiling water. I bet it doesn't take more than 1 or 2 seconds for that entire pot to change color.

Unsensibel

@smaug the only question I have on this design is what prevents the vapor from skipping the helmet and going straight through the column via the drain tube?

punkin

Column is closed via the valve which will give it a little back pressure. The little bit of vapour that does seep in to the first plate will not make much difference. There's a lot more simmering surface area under the helmet than there is in the drain tube.

Smaug

The drain tube extends below the liquid level as it would on any other system that does not employ a pee trap.

Any rising vapor will be a minuscule amount.

jacksonbrown

@Unsensibel said: smaug the only question I have on this design is what prevents the vapor from skipping the helmet and going straight through the column via the drain tube?

.

@Smaug said: With the drain straw exiting below the liquid level, it is essentially the same as any other side column drain back not employing a pee trap. Except the distance back to the kettle is way less.

The end of it is under the surface making an airlock.
Some will but when you think about the ratio of a 2" tube to the rest of the boiler it's probably SFA for a BM.
Probably even less if it isn't positioned above an element on a direct boiler.

grim

Depending on the flow of reflux, it's possible that even an upward moving bubble would deflect away instead of being ever-so-lucky-enough to find it's way up the drain. The vapor is probably minuscule in comparison, like @smaug mentions.

grim

Nobody seemed to mention a potential benefit to the arrangement, there will be a small amount of parasitic reboiling on the flat section. of the drain plate. This would increase efficiency a bit.

Smaug

@grim said: Nobody seemed to mention a potential benefit to the arrangement, there will be a small amount of parasitic reboiling on the flat section. of the drain plate. This would increase efficiency a bit.

Yes that element of the design is part of what we hashed out the longest for this concept. We also did consider having the pipe raised slightly above the floor/plate so that liquid would remain on the plate longer before it made it's way back to the kettle. Fact it would be an interesting experiment to see if any measurable increase in efficiency could be detected by elevating the pipe. I bet a little temporary insert similar to the ProCap, Downcomer Extension, liquid level, increaser, thingies would be a good way to make a comparison test.

jbierling

@Smaug said: The drain tube extends below the liquid level as it would on any other system that does not employ a pee trap.

Any rising vapor will be a minuscule amount.

Is there a disadvantage to a p trap? Why not a p trap that also goes below the liquid?

Smaug

Pee trap below liquid level would not accomplish anything.

Typically you would find pee traps used when the drain back dumps into the kettle above the liquid level within the kettle.

Pee trap is just to prevent vapor bi pass. In this case the pee trap is not needed because the end of the straw is well below the liquid level.

Fluxed

Hold on...where'd this 4 in copper helmet come from? This is way too sexy. Hello all! Long time no see.

Got some peated malt and rye mix ripping with white labs edinburgh scotch ale yeast.

Lookin' to make a nice little end of winter batch. Still working with 3 tornadoes and 12 in packed section, big baby dephlegm. Commin' off at 195 all day.

Nice work guys. Thanks Smaug.

Smaug

Thank you to everyone who stopped by at ADI, it was a great conference!!

Congratulations to everyone who won medals! Special shout out to our customers:

Liberty Call Distilling LLC, Stark Spirits, Rogue Ales & Spirits, Proof Artisan Distillers, Tuthilltown Spirits, Loon Liquors, Dark Corner Distillery, Jersey Spirits Distilling Company, Tucker Distillery, Rollins Distillery, Jackson Hole Still Works, Rational Spirits, Thumb Butte Distillery, Williamsburg Distillery for winning a total of 24 Awards!

grim

Wow what a showing - We'll be there next year with a whole slew of product.

Kapea

Name dropper! ;<)

Smaug

Ok the SugarDaddy stopped by and we have panela. 38,000 pounds of panela! We will also have sugar on the west coast soon to be ready for shipping. We are trying to hold down freight costs as much as possible.

For those of you that don't know, this panela is super premium. We will have it up on the website as well as a documentary style video that explains how and why this is a true artisanal product.

Unsensibel

That stuff is amazing...

punkin

Not just a dabble in the market then mate :D

Smaug

Fermentables @ StillDragon North America

Smaug

So I'll be heading out on Monday to China to meet with Punkin , SDeurope, and Sunshine.

The shop will remain open as Jeff, Dianne, Eric, and Julio have to stay and keep the fire stoked.

FullySilenced

So the real workers don't get a china trip.... B-)

Kapea

He brings them back fortune cookies omiyage

punkin

Well Jeff went last year and Taylor is going this year. He can't take them all at once guys.

Smaug

grim

Celebrating America's referendum to exit from the United Kingdom.

Kapea

If we had not, would we now be slaves to the EU?