StillDragon North America Bulletin Board

Smaug

@punkin said: What is the middle pipe for?

If I understand your question correctly, that is the vapor feed to the column. The column can only be fed from the whiskey hat. The side column base has the vapor inlet and also a drain back straw that is extended well below the liquid level of the kettle to prevent vapor by pass.

CothermanDistilling

@grim said: I need more CothermanDistilling vodka.

you need a FL vacation ;-)

punkin

AAhh, blurry pic i didn't see the bottom bend and thought it was mounted to the boiler.

Smaug

Yeah sorry. My phone camera is not that great. And my shaking hand syndrome evidently is great.

CothermanDistilling

@grim said: I need more CothermanDistilling vodka.

@grim or anyone else looking for a place to come warm up on vacation and see a StillDragon 24-plate vodka still..

Why we liked seaside town on Florida west coast for quiet getaway @ Luxury Travel Review

Smaug

Yeah it's nice over there.

grim

Yeah, was down in Orlando last week, no time to head over that way though.

Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co

3 way valve to down pipe redirects down to the column base, which in my case can be bypassed to direct to the gb-pro which too can be bypassed to run as a straight pot still

Unsensibel

@punkin said: What is the middle pipe for?

Helmet to column?

punkin

3rd times the charm.

Smaug

Luke if you have time while you are growing familiar with your new system,,,,can you run an experiment by which you use the column to squeeze the crap out of your foreshot/heads and switch back to the pot head for the body of the run,,,,if you see my meaning.

Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co

I will be starting an entire pic/vid thread once I have it in San Diego, it's the least I can do

grim

I know I asked once before too, it's tricky because it's not intuitive that the plated column is really only sitting on the top of the boiler, with the drain through - you'd imagine it to be open to vapor.

Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co

it definitely goes against the grain

I'll just show myself out

Smaug

With the drain straw exiting below the liquid level, it is essentially the same as any other side column drain back not employing a pee trap. Except the distance back to the kettle is way less.

jacksonbrown

I didn't realise that's what was going on.
I like it.
How does the straw clean?

Smaug

@jacksonbrown said: I didn't realise that's what was going on.
I like it.
How does the straw clean?

I would imagine with no trouble at all if you were replicating grim's CIP method.

Smaug

Here are some pics that give a better understanding. We went with a 2" drain as it seems to me any size smaller and the distiller risks flooding at relatively moderate running speeds.

Not uncommon to see a 3/4" or 1" drain back on other systems and for the life of me I can't fathom why?,,,When we know you could flood a 4er with a 5500 watt element in a hobby setting....Never mind a 12" or 18" commercial side column with a shit ton more available power to throw at the kettle,,,,,presumably!!

grim

Flood CIP works great. I'm sure the sprayball approach is even better - it would have to be - but really, there is no way it's significantly better. Having a sprayball in the boiler body is nice, especially if you build up some crust at the edges, but really, I find myself being able to get everything bright and shiny with a a hot water hose, and occasionally the big brush. I had myself convinced that sprayball was necessary, but now, I wouldn't even bother. Unless you have a hard plumbed system, with integral pumps, etc - it's just as much work to hook everything up, run it, break it all down, as it is to just scrub it down manually.

jacksonbrown

Sure, but that’s not really CIP is it? (I guess it’s technically not COP). 2” will be easier to get a bottle brush into but it would be better to not have to climb in at all.
That’s actually illegal in AU without the correct tickets.
My guess is that’s exactly why they use smaller diameters in other systems.
The height of the flooding would balance out by creating more head.
The fouling would only be bad in the first foot and I’d be very surprised if it flooded all the way back to the plate with reflux. That would be pretty easy to calculate.
To clean with spray balls properly you need to look at shadows (among other things). Any structure in the boiler and one ball simply won’t do the job. To clean the inside of pipework (that straw) you need turbulent flow or heavy duty chems. Perhaps the draining reflux will mean you don’t get heavy fouling in there but it’s something I’d keep an eye on. The scum ring in a boiler will be heavy in protein and protein fouling is one of the harder ones to clean. It’s also one of the most important. Festering protein isn’t a nice flavour.

jacksonbrown

This one says over 100l/min for 1" but I think that would be water. ETOH (reflux) would be higher at a guess.
I put in .05m of tube and 0.5m of head.

Gravity-fed pipe flow - Hazen-Williams formula for a full pipe @ CalcTool

Smaug

Are you have two separate conversations in one? To whom are you speaking?

Not sure any of the CIP protocols that you mention are being used for distilling kettles. At least I've not seen anything like what you've described here.

FullySilenced

2" drain back tube .... jeez its a whopper is there a choke or valve I don't see?

jacksonbrown

@Smaug said: Are you have two separate conversations in one?

Maybe. You were concerned about an under sized straw flooding. I was just pointing out that it's not that hard to calculate and cleanablity is probably the reason why others use a smaller size.
Well designed CIP shouldn't require any manual cleaning. Just push button then go do something else more useful.

@Smaug said: Not sure any of the CIP protocols that you mention are being used for distilling kettles. At least I've not seen anything like what you've described here.

What have you seen? It's common place in industry when you move above hobby or craft size. Smaller outfits might not be able to afford a dedicated CIP set but there are basic rules to follow that won't cost any extra and will result in a more effective clean.
Clean is clean but if you can do it in half the time with half the chemicals you're saving money long term. Hygiene isn't as big an issue with a boiler but you don't want flavour carrying from batch to batch.
If you want to push the boundary's this is a good place to focus. Minimizing down time and wasted labor.
I've said it before but good CIP is a hell of a lot more than sticking in a spray ball and a random pump.

Testing and actual use will quickly show if any hypothetical issues actually translate into real word ones though.

Smaug

I've seen some pretty impressive systems made by some high profile fabricators. The big producer here has many examples that do not include that kind of sophistication.

It sounds almost like you are talking about systems that may be more typical for milk or condiment processing?

grim

Yeah, if we're talking about a 6 log reduction in microbiological load on a food surface, it's really complex actually.

However, for a still, we don't necessarily need to worry about microbes, and in the vapor path, we don't need to deal with solids or any kind of scale/build up. The kettle has solids, but the surfaces are relatively simple and open.

The come to Jesus moment was realizing that even if you load the column with spray balls, you aren't cleaning the vapor path, or condensers. I've seen stills setup with column and kettle CIP, but nothing at all for the vapor path or product condenser. What good is that? And full automated CIP? That's north of $20k to do correctly, especially when you consider that temperature is a critical factor.

Instead, we use the still to heat the wash liquid, and use our standard pump. Reverse flooding up the PC, or down from the RC, does an incredibly good job of cleaning the column and vapor path.

Did you see the video I posted of the flood approach on my 12" still? It doesn't take much time, the pump is already connected to the system from draining the still, so we just re-route the hoses and off we go.

jacksonbrown

@grim said: And full automated CIP? That's north of $20k to do correctly, especially when you consider that temperature is a critical factor.

Not necessarily but if you add up all the time it could save over the years of use and look at labour cost over the same period it gets more attractive.

@Smaug said: I've seen some pretty impressive systems made by some high profile fabricators. The big producer here has many examples that do not include that kind of sophistication.

What kind of sophistication? Correct sizing?

@Smaug said: It sounds almost like you are talking about systems that may be more typical for milk or condiment processing?

More brewery's actually. The company I worked for did all the distillation stuff in another country but that was mostly flavour recovery.
The big guys wouldn't trust the design work to a fabricator unless they're a process engineering firm with fabrication capability.
Good design can save a lot more money than it costs. The real beauty is that most of the time the work is done once and reused.

The discussion kind of veered off from the start, I'm not saying there are issues with the above.
Use may well show none of what I posted is an issue here. The fouling level will also depend of what goes in the boiler. Pure spirit runs won't be an issue. Mashing in there an you'll want to make sure it goes through a boil stage to sterilise.

Smaug

Well as far as the drainback straw sizing is concerned, my understanding is that a 1/2" ID is capable of 7 gallons per minute as per an iteration of a calculator that determines such things.

But I can tell you in practice that it is entirely possible to flood a 1/2" drain back pipe with a 4500 watt element,,,,hobby style. It has been done.

jbierling

What happens to the reflux alcohol in the drain? How does it escape back through the column? Maybe other drains are smaller so there's less wasted volume?

I think for mashing and cleaning having a detachable drain tube inside the still would be handy. Put a 2" triclamp in there and you can remove or modify it to your hearts content. Maybe add a couple 180s for an internal p trap if necessary.

jacksonbrown

A 1/2" tube would have an ID of 9.05mm, the calculator I put up just gave me just under 10L/min max(about 2.5 Gal /min) Maybe that's the wrong tool to use but I don't think that 4.5kW element would produce more than 0.5L/min of reflux.
Not saying it didn't flood but there was something else going on in that scenario. It would be interesting to hear more on that.
Your not comparing a 1/2" down-comer to a straight pipe are you?