The Big Dunder Pit Thread

FloridaCracker

I wasn't planning on using the 4th generation to experiment with but it was done with no live dunder, just fresh dunder from the 3rd generation. This will give me 3 different opportunities to test;

1. Live dunder added to a spirit run that had no live dunder added to the original wash.

2. Live dunder added to the wash and then none added to the spirit run.

3. Live dunder added to the wash and ALSO the spirit run.

Of course I am guessing that # 3 will be the most intense final product but who knows.

punkin

@Smaug does not distill. Its someone who isn't him.

Jon_o

@grim I have my mollasess and my C. butyricum just arrived a few days ago. I think I got the same product as you. Do you have any suggestions on how you made your bateria or dunder starter and how many capsules you used?

grim

Yeah, same stuff. I used 3 tablets in a liter of starter.

Here was the starter formula I used, although you probably don't need to be very exact.

To crush the tablets I cut a square of aluminum foil, creased it, open it back up, and put it over a flame to sterilize. I used a set of tweezers to take out 3 tablets, put them on the square, refolded, and then crushed the tablets carefully between the two sides of foil. Then poured the powder into to the starter. I wanted to be very careful about touching them with my hands, or potentially introducing other bacteria or yeast.

Boil the starter with foil over the top of your flask for at least 30 minutes, watch it as it will want to boil over.

Not sure if you have any kind of inert gas to remove the oxygen from the flask. I just used the bottle of argon from my tig welder. If you don't have argon, co2, or something similar, just try not to agitate your flask very much when you cool it down. I bet you'll be just fine as long as you don't agitate it or let in any additional oxygen.

punkin

You mean to boil the starter before adding the culture of course. Just thought i'd point that out as it reads funny.

grim

Good point, didn't seem so out of order when I was writing it. Killing your bacterial culture not a good way to start this out.

grim

You might not even need a starter, if you are making a small batch, just crush up the tablets and add them directly to the fermentation 6-12 hours into it. I'm not sure anyone knows the right dosage at this point. If we knew the right amount of CFUs needed to inoculate, we could figure out how many tablets we need. We're probably the first two people to dose the Japanese stuff into a rum wash.

FloridaCracker

@FloridaCracker said: I wasn't planning on using the 4th generation to experiment with but it was done with no live dunder, just fresh dunder from the 3rd generation. This will give me 3 different opportunities to test;

1. Live dunder added to a spirit run that had no live dunder added to the original wash.

2. Live dunder added to the wash and then none added to the spirit run.

3. Live dunder added to the wash and ALSO the spirit run.

Of course I am guessing that # 3 will be the most intense final product but who knows.

Well, tomorrow is the day for rum trial # 1. I will add the aged dunder to the spirit run, hold in a full reflux for an hour and then proceed as normal. I'm going to go back and re-read Arroyo; I am obviously not following the patent but am picking up tips. Smaug advised me to find my own way and that is what I am doing.

Meanwhile today, I am starting a new rum wash and will try test # 2, adding the aged dunder to the new wash. I will wait approximately 48 hours before I do this. Maybe longer as I want the ferment to slow down before adding it. I will go big and add the higher recommended amount of 1 gallon (4%) to the wash. I really feel good about my dunder right now. Smells good and I think that it will bring all kinds of goodness to the party.

When that wash is done, since I now have a Mack-Daddy still, I might not strip it but run it straight. I will run half of it right out of the barrel and the other half I will add some live dunder right before distillation.

Exciting times.

FloridaCracker

Since Arroyo or anything else that I have read didn't mention a percentage of aged dunder added to the spirit run, does anyone have an idea? I have 6 gallons of strip going into about a 13 gallon total volume.

Grim?

Smaug

What is the abv of your "strip"? Is it in low wines territory?

TheMechWarrior

@grim, that's a great list!
Where did it come from and is there more?

FloridaCracker

@Smaug said: What is the abv of your "strip"? Is it in low wines territory?

The strip is 50% ABV.

I was thinking of going ahead tonight and loading the boiler with the strip AND the dunder. Top off with filtered water and let it sit until late tomorrow morning when I will run it.

Thoughts?

Smaug

Dilute (with your dunder) to 20 -25% abv,,,,,,, imo.

Run with minimal reflux

FloridaCracker

Wow, that seems like a lot of dunder! I was thinking maybe a gallon, tops. I would guess that I wouldn't need a long reflux with that percentage of dunder, right?

Smaug

Lack of reflux to keep your purity down a bit so that you can consistantly collect close to 160 for a more navy style. Addition of dunder to high light esterfication that should have been cooked up from the previous run.

But you can also wind it up, promote more esterfication and collect in the 90s for a brighter mouth feel with forward rum notes too.

You really can't loose your rum notes that easily.

FloridaCracker

I will probably shoot for a cleaner, less tailsy type of rum so I will probably stay in the 90's. Was adding the dunder to the strip and after 2 gallons I have to admit that I chickened out. That only dropped the ABV to about 35% so I used distilled water to drop the rest of the way to 25%. That brought me to about 10 gallons total in the boiler. Should have plenty of time to meld together before I run it tomorrow.

BTW, I just started my next rum wash which is Gen IV. When I pitched the yeast the wash temp was 91 at 3PM . Just checked it and it is violently fermenting and the temp has GONE UP to 101. Hope the high temp doesn't cause the yeast to shit the bed. 8-X When the ferment slows, I will add the live dunder to it.

Will keep you all posted as to what happens tomorrow.

SDeurope

FloridaCracker

Admittedly the use of "live aged" dunder is not for the faint of heart. I am looking for a rum with as much depth and complexity as I can possibly get. I think that using the dunder will help with that. My favorite so far, and I haven't tasted a lot, is the Jamaican style. Surprisingly, my first few rum attempts have been very drinkable after just a few months of aging. Hopefully these experiments will take it to a new level.

I promise that if this doesn't work out I will let you all know and it will go in a container similar to the one shown above. Remember, no guts, no glory.

grim

I don't know how you would get the high-ester style without the additional microbes that should be present in the dunder. Straight yeast simply do not make the organic acids in the volumes necessary. It doesn't matter how you ferment, or how you distill, without the bugs you won't replicate this style.

I don't think you need to run high reflux through the whole run to replicate the Arroyo methodology, but I do think you need to be able to run 100% reflux at startup for enough time for the Fischer Esterification to take place. If you can reflux for an hour or two, it should be sufficient. From that point forward you can cut down your reflux ratio and collect at a lower proof. From what I've seen, this shouldn't be a problem.

How I learned to stop worrying and love the bugs.

FloridaCracker

Grim, I will go ahead and reflux for a full hour and then cut it way back to try and capture around 90 abv. I may go as low as 85, who knows. I know I will lose some of the flavors but I really want something "clean" that won't take as long to age. Since I am doing 3 trials in this experiment, I also will try to do something that I can easily duplicate 2 more times.

I know that I am not doing anything here that many haven't tried already, but I do feel a little like Slim Pickens because the combination of MY still and MY dunder and MY wash will make it somewhat unique.

It may end up like sour-ass-in-a-bottle but WTF.

I still have to construct my radiator cooler this morning before I proceed. With the heat we have right now, my reservoir tank isn't cooling off very quickly. My new setup only uses about half of the water that I was using before but dayum, the water coming out of this 5" dephleg is hot.

grim

Let me know if you want me to ship you down some bugs to add to your dunder.

FloridaCracker

I might take you up on that. Thanks. Hopefully the sugar cane that I added at the beginning will introduce some of the good bugs.

(if this all goes south and the bugs get us, don't tell Punkin. He's waiting for it to happen)

Myles

Is there a chart somewhere ( @Harry?) showing which rum styles need this high ester process? Is it really just for the dark Navy style rums only? I haven't tried enough rum styles to be able to say.

Personally I like the gold Trinidad rums and I don't know if they need the full Arroyo process.

FloridaCracker

The few parts of Arroyo that I am using are:

1. Reflux for 1-2 hours. I will do one hour.

2. On the wash that I started yesterday, I will add the aged dunder when the ferment slows down. The patent calls for it to be done when the pH drops to a certain level (I think 3.5). I will add it when the ferment slows. Also it calls for certain bacteria to be added, not dunder per se. I hope that the correct bacteria are present in my dunder.

The rest of my process is a combination of things I have done in the past, advice from Smaug and probably a dozen things that I have forgotten.

Another thing. My reflux time will probably be closer to 2 hours because I will collect 600ml of fores drop by drop. That will add about an hour.

FloridaCracker

OK, one hour of reflux done. About 500ml of fores collected of a planned 600. Everything going according to schedule but there is a light color to the fores. Absolutely no puke of any kind and the column was relatively clean (only 2 runs done, both clear wash). The color is diminishing and should be gone by the time I am into heads.

Curious though.

grim

Did you happen to catch the pH of the wash at the start?

brewsmith

I have had very faint coloration randomly on some of my runs early in, even after fresh cleaning rums. Not sure what to attribute it to...

Clickeral

@brewsmith said: I have had very faint coloration randomly on some of my runs early in, even after fresh cleaning rums. Not sure what to attribute it to...

It can be from some residue on the plates, comes out in fores I wouldn't worry to much about it

FloridaCracker

Grim, I didn't catch the pH. It was 6 gallons of strip, 50% abv, 2 gallons of aged dunder, and roughly 2 gallons of distilled water. I am not used to having copper plates and caps so maybe that's where the color came from. Was gone after 1 liter was pulled. 600ml of fores and then another couple of hundred of the heads then it cleared up.

FloridaCracker

The run went pretty much uneventful after the color went away. I kept the column in full reflux for an hour then spent another hour pulling the 600ml of fores. Turned the dephleg down a bit and collected a couple of liters of heads. Probably went overly cautious. Because of the long reflux times, I'm sure that everything was about as compressed as it could get. Started pulling hearts at 92 and continued down to 85. Tails came on VERY fast and were very noticeable. Only captured one liter and then shut it down. ABV on that last liter dropped from 85 down to 70 and started to smell rank. Won't be any adding any tails back on this run.

The smell of the area in general was that of buttered popcorn. The spirit never really got a butter smell, just the normal light rum smell that I am used to. Tried sipping some but it wasn't really what I would call drinkable right off of the still. That was kinda what I was looking for but didn't get it. Guess I won't really know how good or bad it will be until it ages. Really hoping for some depth. I will let it air for a few days and then put it on oak for a while.

Meanwhile, my new rum wash will probably slow down in a day or two and then I will add some dunder to it.