The Big Dunder Pit Thread

grim

Diacetyl?

Smaug

Drinkable off the the still at what abv?

FloridaCracker

@Smaug said: Drinkable off the the still at what abv?

The couple of times that I tried it, at about 90 and 85 were not what I would call drinkable.

FloridaCracker

@grim said: Diacetyl?

I would imagine that was what it was. Of course I had to Google "diacetyl" smell

Smaug

90 off the still is harsh :) ,,,, So the fellas tell me.

FloridaCracker

@Smaug said: 90 off the still is harsh :)

Yeah, don't know what I was thinking. Maybe "Hey, this smells really good, let me taste some". After the choking, gagging, spitting, crying slowed down I tried to dilute with some water for a taste and by then the taste buds were scorched. Tried again at 85 mixed with some water and it just wasn't drinkable.

Kapea

When a random guy I know tries tasting high proof off of the still, he usually puts his finger in the stream and then puts one drop on the tip of his tongue.

Tails detection - three or four drops on the palm, rub hands together, then smell it as it evaporates. Light oiliness on the palms is another indication of the presense of tails.

FWIW there are 20 drops in a mililiter. I learned this from doing dropwise titrations (without a buret). That would give you some idea of how fast to set your takeoff to collect 600mL/hr. Three drips per second will get you pretty close.

But hey, that's life on Gilligan's island. YMMV. ;)

Enjoying the narration of your commissioning runs. Good on you Skippy!

FloridaCracker

@Kapea said: When a random guy I know tries tasting high proof off of the still, he usually puts his finger in the stream and then puts one drop on the tip of his tongue.

Tails detection - three or four drops on the palm, rub hands together, then smell it as it evaporates. Light oiliness on the palms is another indication of the presense of tails.

FWIW there are 20 drops in a mililiter. I learned this from doing dropwise titrations (without a buret). That would give you some idea of how fast to set your takeoff to collect 600mL/hr. Three drips per second will get you pretty close.

But hey, that's life on Gilligan's island. YMMV. ;)

Enjoying the narration of your commissioning runs. Good on you Skippy!

I do the finger in the stream, taste trials as well. Also serves another purpose for me; rough temp of the distillate as I ran out of SD temp probes. The drops in the palm is a new trick and I will try it. Tails have been so easy to spot on this still that I can almost feel them coming on before they arrive! I guess when you have to make do with a sub-standard tool for so long, it forces you to learn more about the process. Really makes it nice when you get a Cadillac.

Latest update on the latest rum wash: This wash was started just a couple of days ago and was violently fermenting away after a couple of hours like my normal rum washes do. Yesterday, the fermenting slowed down and the SG had dropped to 1.0 so I figured that would be a good time to add the aged dunder. I poured in 1 gallon (4% which is the max recommended by Arroyo) and I could barely hear the screams of the yeast coming from the barrel. I imagined that it would be the same sound that Punkin would make if he ever came in contact with the dunder. The yeast put on their big boy panties and continued to ferment.

By today, the ferment has almost stopped. The SG hasn't dropped anymore so I'm guessing that the dunder bugs are probably having their way with the yeast. I'm sure by tomorrow that the ferment will be done and I can continue with the trials.

I almost would like to try and run part of this wash without stripping and see what I get. I know that with 4 plates that it would be no problem but I am so used to stripping that it will be hard to do otherwise. Thoughts?

Kapea

Put on your big boy panties and try a four plate wash run. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat? :D

FloridaCracker

I will call your bluff. My next run will be with 4 plates. If it sucks, I will ship it to you.

:))

Kapea

You're afraid to taste a four plate stripping run? What's the worst that could happen, brown distillate from the parrot's beak? :)

FloridaCracker

Actually, all I needed was a little push to do it. I actually ran some UJ yesterday on four plates and from first observations it will be excellent. My past experience with single rum runs have been less than impressive but then again I was running it on a column that is comparable to a pencil compared to what I have now.

In hindsight, if it sucks then I will just run it again.

And BTW, every time that I think about brown foam from a parrot I just get the visual and it is not good.

FloridaCracker

I'm now in a position to comment on the last run. It was the one where I added 2 gallons of live dunder to a previously stripped 6 gallons, ABV of 50%. I then added 2 gallons of distilled water to bring the total wash to 10 gallons. Ran the still and collected from about 85%-90%. I then let it air for 5 days. Made very conservative cuts on the heads and tails, keeping hearts and just the first 1 liter jar of tails which smelled like a big old fat stick of butter so I couldn't throw it out. The next jar quickly went to shit so it was tossed. I didn't collect down very far into the tails.

I could smell the jars while they were airing from as far as 10 feet if the breeze was blowing through the garage just right. Smelled like a butterscotch factory. After the 5 days I mixed all of the jars together that I was keeping (almost 2 gallons) and separated them out for testing. Most were cut to 65% and put away with French Oak dominoes. One jar left white. I also took the opportunity to test the US unit. Side by side smells indicated that some of the butter tones were diminished after US but not much. Taste tests (cut to 40%) showed a smoother drink and possibly a small loss of the butter flavor. Molasses was still detectable and almost a brown sugar hint. Overall, I think that the only way that I could fuck this up is if I over oak it. Left at least an inch or more of air space in the jars and put them to bed.

Initial observations of this run were so much better than anything else that I have done. Will give this batch time to settle down but I don't know how long I can wait. My next trials will be with Gen 4 and I will not strip this time. Live dunder was added to the wash and I am debating whether or not to add anymore to the run. I get 2 runs from a wash so I need to decide on how to proceed. Had planned to strip so the plans have changed. Maybe one run as is and the other with a small amount of live dunder. If my last trial turns out as good as I hope, I may not need to experiment too much more with rum.

popcorn

Keep it up @FloridaCracker beem following this closely I have 25 gallons of Dunder that's on about month 6 of aging, can't wait to use it next time I do rum. When you finish all your test I want to know what you thought worked the best.

FloridaCracker

Will do, @popcorn. Your dunder is a little older than mine but not by much. The first 2 generations of rum that I have done were good and are constantly getting better with time but always something missing. Hopefully this live dunder version will fill in those blanks.

FloridaCracker

Update: I have obviously been sneaking sips of this stuff while making cuts so I can report that off of the still or even after airing for 3 or 4 days there is what I would call an "off" flavor. And yes, I would liken it to the smell of the live dunder. I still proceeded with oaking, using the French oak at Smaug's suggestion. This shit colors up REAL FAST and my first batch after only 4 days was the typical mahogany color of a dark rum. Of course the first indicative taste was oak so I put it up for a while. This run was stripped and then live dunder added to the spirit run. Second batch was after a single run and left on the oak for only 2 days. Perfect golden color. Taste? All I can say is holy shit. I am definitely moving in the right direction. The caramel/butter taste is there with almost an apricot flavor in the background. Almost an indiscernible oak taste. It seems that the oak removed the off flavor, or at least totally covered it up. I must also admit that I have been using my US machine on everything that has been coming off of the still and I will never distill without it. On the rum, I ran it through four 8 minute cycles after airing, at initial ABV (fire extinguisher handy) and then again after proofing down to 40ABV. At this point, I would say that my only disappointment would be that it isn't drinkable white, off of the still because of the off flavor but I will take that because I don't really drink white rum anyway. The golden seems to be the early winner but the darker might really show up after some aging. Maybe the US will help with shortening the aging time although I think that the oak flavor will take a while to soften up.

grim

@FloridaCracker said: Second batch was after a single run and left on the oak for only 2 days. Perfect golden color. Taste? All I can say is holy shit. I am definitely moving in the right direction.

What was the second batch process? Dunder into the active ferment?

FloridaCracker

Ooops. Left that part out. On the second experimental ferment I waited until the ferment had slowed considerably but had not stopped. I then added 1 gallon or about 4% to the wash. This is about max of what Arroyo called for. It kept fermenting for about another day and then was done. Right at 1.00 SG. The smell of the wash was not like previous runs. Definitely could tell that the live dunder was there. Oh, and I had added 5 gallons of fresh dunder from the previous run which was the fourth generation.

I have already started generation 6 with another 5 gallons of fresh dunder from gen 5. To this wash I added the live dunder a little earlier while there was still a pretty good ferment going on. Ferment finished in about the same time of 3-4 days.

It will be nice when I can put these products side by side and compare. Afraid that it will be a while since the heavier oaked ones will take some time. All spirits were taken off relatively clean at about 88-93. I'm sure that I have missed some flavors from the tails because none were added back in but plenty of flavors have made it through.

Also, all runs were made after a 1 hour reflux plus another hour of pulling fores and heads so any esterfication that could happen probably did.

FloridaCracker

Sort of an update as I have just hit a milestone within the last 15 minutes;

It may have taken about 7 generations total and 3 generations using dunder but I am currently running a spirit run that is drinkable off of the still. Never thought that I would see this day but tasting a sip of the 92ABV stuff that is coming out right now makes me want to drink some more. Damn tasty stuff.

It can only get better with time........

Unsensibel

+1

Only keeps getting better if you can resist the sipping while stillin' :P

Kapea

Well now you can officially PWD... :D

Congrats on your success!

grim

I'm most impressed that he hasn't died from the some rare tropical disease grown in the dunder.

FloridaCracker

@grim said: I'm most impressed that he hasn't died from the some rare tropical disease grown in the dunder.

I try and keep the live dunder contained within the 55 gallon barrel but I know that some day it will escape and catch me offguard. I am always looking over my shoulder, knowing that it is so close.

Kapea

@grim said: I'm most impressed that he hasn't died from the some rare tropical disease grown in the dunder.

But now when you make him mad, he rips his shirt and turns green... :))

FloridaCracker

A fellow stillin buddy is going to start making rum after hearing about my latest experiments. He has only made neutral for the past couple of years with a bad scotch experiment under his belt. I offered him some backset from my 8th generation of rum and he is going to use it.

Wish someone had given me that kind of head start. I told him not to feel like a hero if his rum turns out awesome. My backset now has a buttery toffee smell and it seems a shame to throw any of it out but I always have a lot extra. If anyone in the central Florida area wants a jump start on a rum, I would be happy to hook them up with backset from my 9th generation. Haven't started that wash yet as I am hoping to find a better (cheaper) source of molasses but I saved enough backset for the run.

One observation on the last couple of washes; I have added some calcium carbonate to them to bring the pH up closer to 5. The successive use of backset is causing my washes to be more acidic, closer to 4. Noticed on the 6th generation that the yeast didn't behave quite the same. A little more sluggish. In my situation, they like a pH of 4.5-5 to start with.

FloridaCracker

I believe that I can start to make some distinctions between the different trials that I have been doing with the aged dunder.

I always use backset from the previous run at about 20% of the total wash. Every wash, every time. That said, I have tried using the LIVE dunder in 3 different scenarios:

1. Added to a previously stripped batch of low wines and then run.
2. Added to a wash and then single run.
3. Added to a wash then stripping run followed by a spirit run.

I know that 3 months is a short time to evaluate rum but I can pretty much call (1) a failure. At least it isn't something that I would want to drink right now. It still has a pukey sort of moldy flavor in the background and doesn't seem to want to go away no matter how much airing/US that I give it. It might pull out with age but I ain't countin on it. I've tried it white, on American toasted Oak, French Oak and even spiced . Same deal. I'm not sure that an exorcism could remove the off flavor.

As far as (2) is concerned, it definitely shows promise. It too has a strange smell/flavor that might be going away with time. The best description that I can give is that it almost has a slight spiced flavor having just been on oak. I didn't leave any white. Sipping some now just over ice and it has a shitload of character just not the droid that I am looking for. I am probably being too judgemental of it and it may be a winner with more time.

(3) is the clear-cut winner at this point. Most has gone into my barrel for further aging but this is how I will be doing my washes and runs from now on. White, gold, dark all turned out good and I can only imagine what it will be like out of the barrel. After only 2 weeks in the barrel I took a sample and it will be rich, very rich. Already tastes complex and smooth with very little burn or bite even at 65%. It all went into the US machine before the barrel so that probably is the reason it is so far along.

The trials will continue and I will post further results.

FloridaCracker

I should probably note that I have been looking for a cheaper source of molasses as the $16 a gallon is killing me. Thought I had a source but they won't sell small amounts to me. They provide truckloads to a rum distillery 1 mile from my house but can't hook me up. Seems everyone who is selling by the barrel or tote is out of state and the shipping is the deal killer. I finally decided to try the Herdlife brand of feed molasses from Rural King or Tractor Supply or Walmart. From Walmart I can buy a 2 1/2 gallon jug for $14 shipped free to my door. So I bought some and did the whole clarifying thing to remove the propionic acid; Major pain in the ass. Used the same amount of molasses in my wash as before and it took off. Not quite as fast as previously but not too bad. Slowed after 36 hours and I added my live dunder. Should be done in a day or so and I will report my findings.

punkin

Love hearing detailed trials. Thanks.

jacksonbrown

Don't discount what time in a barrel can do.
I was quite disheartened by some of the stuff I was making early on.
There was a very definite flavour that just wasn't right (with or without dunder). Same as my grain stuff. I scrutinised over the distilling regime, controlled the whole ferment process, PH, temp, started inoculating with a dunder mother at the just right SG. Everthing I could think of, I controlled.
The product did improve a lot but the stink was still there. 1.5 years later in a barrel and it almost gone on the nose and the flavour is well on the way too. The distilling is the easy bit, the ferment makes a massive difference but I think the missing link that I was looking for really is proper aging.
You don't need it too clean off the still if it's getting put down for a few years IMO.

Adding dunder to the boiler then sterilising it (heating it) is a bit of a waste I recon.
Add it to the ferment after a day or two to give the bugs a chance to grow and make a butt load of flavour.
If the resulting rum is nice but a bit too strong then that's where the art of blending comes in.

FloridaCracker

Jackson, I totally get what you are saying. I am trying to control EVERYTHING that I can and the most important stuff is probably out of my hands ie. aging. From what I gather, the bugs in the dunder can meld with the bugs in the wash AND in the still via esterfication. I failed to mention in my previous post that I always leave my rum distillations in a full reflux for a full hour to try and capture any esterfications that I can. As far as the aging goes, my barrel is only 15 gallons or approx 60 liters and of that I only have it half full right now. I rotate it every couple of days to keep it from drying out. I feel like with the size of the barrel and the fact that it is 1/2 full will make it age out faster. I pulled out 1 liter yesterday and put a French Oak domino in it . It was already a light gold color and I will try different things with the aging process.

As an aside, I am currently drinking rum from March of this year. Before my dunder trials. Before my SD mack-daddy still. Before the generations built up (I'm drinking only the second generation of my rum). Very good drop. It doesn't have the depth or character of the latest generations but very drinkable and that is due to more aging.

I have so many fucking trials going on now it makes my head spin but when I get to that perfect mix, I will know exactly how I did it.