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In this Discussion
- Ak49er September 2015
- AlTheChemist January 2018
- bluc January 2018
- brewsmith June 2015
- captainshooch April 2015
- Clickeral December 2015
- CothermanDistilling August 2021
- dad May 2015
- DocPorter April 2015
- DonMateo January 2018
- Dunder_Head June 2018
- Eucyblues March 2016
- EZiTasting February 2018
- fadge March 2015
- Fiji_Spirits April 2019
- FloridaCracker July 2023
- grim June 2023
- HbPs February 2022
- jacksonbrown January 2016
- Jon_o November 2015
- Kapea April 2019
- Kelbor April 2018
- Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co April 2019
- Lloyd March 2015
- Mickiboi March 2015
- Moonshine August 2021
- Myles June 2015
- popcorn January 2016
- Pseudo January 2016
- punkin February 2022
- radiatorboy August 2018
- richard June 2023
- RobertS February 2016
- RumBumm June 2023
- SBB_ March 2015
- SDeurope June 2015
- Smaug June 2023
- TheMechWarrior June 2015
- Tunstal September 2019
- Unsensibel February 2016
- vooharmy October 2015
- zymurgybob January 2018
Comments
My understanding is that if you have the right type of yeast AND the right type of bugs AND you give them the right conditions i.e. PH/temp/nutrients then they can set up a bit of a symbiotic relationship.
I guess they are metabolising each other’s waste products and busting out magical new ones. Once you get the boiler up to BP you’ve pretty much killed everything in there. The esterification bizzle all about the bugs by-products, not the bugs.
That’s why you want to get that dunder in the ferment while there’s still some sugar to play with. To get those waste product levels right up. Lots of exotic acids and alcohols. Add the heat for an hour of reflux you convert those into more esters.
I’ve been topping my barrel up with neutral to keep it at 95% full.
My rum recipe doesn’t have any sugar in it, only blackstrap, so watering down the flavour with clean neutral isn’t really a problem (it’s actually a necessity)
You best go back and read the thread and the patent. You are not showing yourself at your best here JB.
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
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Did I phuc up or you taking the piss?
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Just pointing out that there is detailed discussion through the thread as to why FC is proceeding the way he is. Hope i didn't come across as rude, apologies if so.
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
My understanding of the patent goes like this:
The live dunder is added toward the end of the ferment; time enough to co-mingle with the yeast and get their groove on but late enough not to piss them off. The bugs in the dunder then learn that they will be boiled alive. They immediately shit the bed. OR the wash which is good for us because it is the very shit flavor that we are looking for. The yeast by this time are so trashed by the alcohol that they have been producing that they openly welcome the boiling and they throw a party. Everyone goes out in flames and produce a fine spirit.
Not rude, it just didn't make much sense to me?!?
Sure my interpretation is a bit different to most of this thread.
That’s why I posted.
I’ve read the patent a few times.
I processed it with my background in food science and I adapted it to my needs.
I was just giving my interpretation. It might not be right or maybe it is, or maybe what we need is somewhere in the middle.
I’m all for what FC is doing.
Someone that is actually putting their money where their mouth is getting some real experience under their belt instead of repeating some other guys opinion that he read.
Firsthand knowledge trumps post-count every time as far as I’m concerned. (and no, that isn’t directed at anyone here in particular).
My comment regarding the heating/sterilising was basically not to confuse the biological processes with the chemical ones.
They are both important but are very different.
The dunder needs to grow with the yeast to create the precursor chemicals.
This is the biological step.
Once in the boiler the heat will kill what is in the wash. Holding anything over 80° for extended periods will kill most things. I don’t have to explain that do I?
That is when the chemical processes take over. The Fischer–Speier esterification.
When you reflux for a while you have the combination of heat and reduced water content.
If the precursor chemicals are present the there should be resulting esterification.
My interpretation is that by putting dunder straight into the boiler then the only precursor chemicals present are the ones that were in the dunder itself.
It will have an effect but to get the max effect you need to get things growing in the fermenter like the patent suggests.
I should add that the patent talks more about standardising the dunder process with pure strains. Not actually using dunder.
I’m also not sure about the comments that he added or left out critical info.
From what I remember, it was set up as part of a government initiative so that would lead me to believe that the info contained in it would be pretty straight down the line.
Stewing your yeast cells to get them to break down a release more chemicals was not part of the patent as far as I remember but the last time I read it was over a year ago.
Maybe I missed that bit.
You could inoculate with the dunder at the same as the yeast but according to the patent the bacteria would consume too much of the available sugars and your ABV would suffer.
You would get bugger all yield but it would be an essence of sorts.
The patent also suggests adding more wort with the dunder halfway through the ferment to bump up the sugar again as another option.
I’m on the same learning journey as most so if I come to wrong conclusions on something then please let me know. That’s how I learn.
Yes JB, I am using a bastardized version of Arroyo. Using the parts that make sense and ditching the parts that aren't feasible for me to pull off. From what I remember of it, the live bacteria was added after the ferment slowed and the pH was somewhere around 3.2 or so. This would prevent the ABV from suffering as you pointed out because the yeast would have already done most of the heavy lifting by then. My washes never drop that low so I just add the live dunder when it has noticeably slowed, usually at the 48 hour mark. My ferments usually net me between 7%-8% and the ferment REALLY slows after the bugs are added. You are right, the patent doesn't use dunder but the actual bacteria needed for the additional flavoring. My live dunder is my way of gambling that those beneficial bacteria are there and adding to the overall flavor profile. I actually have no idea what is growing in that soup but something worth a shit is coming out of it.
I feel like I am really narrowing down to the point that I want to be. I've stolen, borrowed and flat out pilfered most of the ideas that I am using. Hopefully by documenting my approach, I can save the next poor bastard a lot of time and coin.
To be honest mate, it sounds like your doing exactly the same thing as me.
I am about to use those tablets to inoculate my wash, any feedback from the guys who have already done this? My plan is to crush 6 tablets directly into my 60L fermenter once fermentation settles. If that doesn't work out I will try the starter. This is by far my favourite thread and I am excited to finally get a start on this, rum being by far my favourite thing to make.
This book has a bit on lacto in it but it's pretty light on on actual info.
I got the impression the author was just fumbling his way through.
It's not rum but same processes going on.
What tablets?
Miyarisan Clostridium tablets.
I'd drop at the 24hr mark with the tablets.
Oh, OK. Yeah, you want to wait until the ferment gets going really well. I wait until the ferment has slowed before adding the dunder.
I don't think we've at all figured out what the right dose for the tablets is, plenty more trial and error is necessary.
The good thing about the Miyari is we know the amount of active bacteria per dose - 0.35 x 10^6 CFU. So 6 tabs is 2.1 million viable cells. Tiny in comparison to the yeast cell counts. You are probably in the low hundreds of billions of viable yeast cells 24 hours in.
Grim, I was just thinking while doing 2 stripping runs; Arroyo uses a single run. Wonder how much esterfication I am missing out on by refluxing my spirit run and not the stripping runs? Do you think enough of the good shit carries over to the spirit run?
Did 2 stripping runs and one spirit run on Saturday. Most I have ever done in one day and my radiator cooled reservoir did just fine. I was kinda nervous about the new molasses but it seems that it did OK. Ended with a 7% wash which is about normal for my. The distillate did have a funky different smell after airing but that went away after the US treatment. Took a sample out of my barrel and it looks like the heat, previous US treatment, small barrel and the fact that it is only half full will add up to a very short stay in the barrel. I'll post a photo of it when I get more out today.
after 3 weeks in the barrel
Hows she taste ? Looks great!
Not bad. There is a little oak flavor that's why I pulled it. ABV dropped from 65 to 59% in that 3 week period. Will open the jars up occasionally as they age. When it went into the barrel it had a flavor that was drinkable. Wouldn't call it drinkable now with the oak flavor. At least not to my taste. Gonna take time
Using 5 kg of sugar and 5 kg of molasses made up to 55l. Probably a little too much fermentables? Not sure yet, added 8 crushed tablets to the wash 24 hrs in. Not as scientific as you guys but I plan to dial it in next round.
I was going one bucket of molasses (10lt), one bucket of spent wash (sterile) for pH then top up to around 55lt (SG1070) plus some nutrients and ferment at 31°. I used an ale yeast last time but I'll try a bourbon yeast next time.
Then a day or two later I'd adjust to pH 5.5 if needed, through in a few liters of dunder and drop the fermenter to 29°.
Once dry I'd decant into the boiler and put the dregs in the fermentor into the dunder pot. Then I use the spent wash to top up the dunder pot to full again and save a bucket pH correct the next wort.
What do you use for ph measurements and adjustments? I read as sterile wash is your ph adjuster?
I have a pH meter. It gets a bucket of spent wash at the start to get the acid up.
After that it's more about keeping the acid down. I use lime water for that.
It's just a saturated solution of slaked lime in a tub with water.
Use as necessary and keep topped up with water and lime.
i.e. straight from the boiler (nothing live)
So I started another round of dunder pits. Currently I made 3 batches.
Last week I went to the local international grocery store and there was a sale on overripe bananas and overripe sugar cane. I must have been my lucky day. The cashier was giving me funny looks :P
Below are the pictures of the dunder after 3 days. Some of them have a lot of activity.
Can some of you take a look at my dunder pits. Am I on the right track or am I just growing mold.
Also on a side note, I am currently fermenting another batch with clostridium butyricum added directly. My previous run I only used 6 tablet and I didn't notice a difference. This run I used 1/8 cup (maybe ~200 tablets). This run has had a lot more activity and has taken ~3 times as long to ferment out. I hope there is a difference in the end product. I should be distilling this weekend.
Ingredients
Day 1
Day 3
200? Wow. At least we'll have a good gauge of a top end. How many liters of wash?
About 5 gallons (~19L) wash
Let us know how it goes, did you add them at the same time as the yeast?
Was able to access some molasses straight from the sugar plant ( US Sugar) and started a couple of washes. In my 42 gallon wash I used 10 gallons of molasses. No brown sugar this time. I was previously using 5 gallons of molasses and 35lbs of brown sugar. Not sure of the actual content of the fancy molasses from GFS but the new stuff is 85 brix , crude protein 6%, total sugars as invert 48%, dry matter 77%, ash 16%. Added the same nutes as before and it took off almost immediately. Temp started at 85f and climbed to 98f by the next morning. The main difference this time is the SG started off the meter; Wasn't even reading because it was so high. I'm used to starting around 1.07 or 1.08. This was somewhere over 1.1. It is now about 1.05 and really slowing down after I added the live dunder. Really looking forward to seeing the difference in taste. Will probably rack it tomorrow night and strip it on Saturday.
Really pumped about 3 runs tomorrow of the 100% molasses wash. 2 stripping and one spirit. On a side note; if anyone here is thinking of making spiced rum, I can add some advice. If you are using anise stars, start with just one piece of the star,not the whole thing. I put one star in with 2 liters of fine, almost done, spiced rum and now less than 24 hours later I have 2 liters of licorice rum. I would say I am pissed off but out of all of the experiments that I have done or am doing, I've had few total failures. This probably will be one. I may try to blend some other rum in to try and save it. Who knows.
I like the idea of using fresh cane to seed your dunder.
So I just got a run through too.
There's lots of talk about the ferment side of things but what about when it's time to run.
Raf had some tips there too. It certainly isn't how I normally do things but I read through the patent process again and just tried to stick to what it said as best I could.
I had 4x 4" plates running at 2kW the whole time.
I refluxed for a solid two hours. Then I shut the deph water completely and ran as a pot.
The plates didn't take long to dry up to a puddle and the ABV dropped very quickly.
It pulled the first 0.5-1% of wash volume as heads.
I collected down to 75% then diverted to tails.
At 50% I started collecting for product again until the total average in the heart phase was barrel proof.
I have a few more jars than just that just in case I need to go higher or lower but that was what I was aiming for.
Like I said, I wouldn't normally be doing it like that but it'll be interesting to see what comes out.