MOCS 4 Inch Crystal Modified BOK Build

Smaug · 7 October 2014 05:39PM

Up power to get the same take off as the regular caps or up power to increase take off compared to the original caps?

grim · 7 October 2014 06:13PM

That is one beautiful chiller, damn.

captainshooch · 7 October 2014 06:51PM

Is like you both said, a little more power to load but then they are very forgiving and can take a wider range and certainly more than standard caps once loaded. I have not tried the adjustable downcomers yet. Is on the bucket list. Smaug more power for faster take off rates.

punkin · 7 October 2014 07:15PM

Good chance Lloyd was running his 5" rig with the super condensor that comes standard on that rig, MoCS, the cap'n has a 4" with procaps i believe so much less knockdown in the standard 4" condensor.

captainshooch · 7 October 2014 07:32PM

Yes what Punkin said.

Manofconstantsorrow · 7 October 2014 08:10PM

I see said the blind man as he picked up the hammer and saw

CothermanDistilling · 7 October 2014 09:37PM

@captainshooch said: The flow control box info is scattered all over, bits here and there. I can gather up a list and schematic if you'ld like but CothermanDistilling sourced some flow meters with remote sensors that might be a better option.
I basically use an SD needle valve and Digiflow meters.

Here is that thread.

Manofconstantsorrow · 8 October 2014 05:24AM

Well time for the daily update, not a whole lot to add today other than the damn house is clean. Parts deliveries didn't arrive as intended :!! (don't these damn people know how impatient I am) the one delivery was from the brother in-law, which I am on the fence about as you'll soon see.

So I tasked the bother in-law with making a screen that fit in the crystal dragon gasket that was strong enough to hold the 30lbs of SPP in place, well I see I may not have of shared my vision to his full under standing. While these are beautiful screens/filter disks they will slow down the vapor speed via flow restriction. This is not the brother in-laws fault but mine, have a look;

So whats you take? I just hope he's not pissed when I tell him we need to rethink and redo as his usual comment back to me will be " you need to learn how to explain things right " :-??

No welder availability again today but I can so you the 8" end cap machined out to slip fit the 4" long ferrel for the low profile reducer;

Well not a lot else to say about todays progress, although the farmer buddy called :-bd and ask how much screen corn I would be wanting this year, screen corn is like a very fine crack it's actually what falls through the combine screen.

Manofconstantsorrow · 8 October 2014 07:53AM

@CothermanDistilling said: Here is that thread.

@CothermanDistilling I read the thread but did not see which one you chose to go with, how is it working for you and what size column are you using it with and what would you recommend to me?

Thanks MOCS

Lloyd · 8 October 2014 08:32AM

@Manofconstantsorrow said: Smaug when I was running ProCaps with Lloyd he actually had to up the power by 25% I believe to get all the trays to load correctly over his normal run but then again he was feeding me that bijou bourbon he makes and I could be mistaken.

That was the original experiment using the adjustable downcomer prototypes. We set the level differently on all six of the 5" plates, from shallow to very deep, trying to locate the sweet spot. The plate that refused to bubble had the fluid height set to maximum (about 1.5") and we were getting blow-through... more plate depth than cup depth of the downcomer and the vapor blew through the downcomer.

By stepping up the power we were able to flood the plate and then cut the power to allow the cups to fill, then the plate started working.
Just finding the limits with a new toy.

At the top of this page and on the right, middle picture, that is the exact plate that was giving us problems. We got it working but it was a chore to do. I won't be setting my adjustable downcomers quite so tall anymore.

I'm pretty sure we were impaired by the end of the run.

Smaug · 8 October 2014 11:47AM

Thus far my experience has been that regardless of diameter, each diameter can be run very softly. If the 4" is run with 2800 to 3000 watts it will produce as much as the 6" run with the same input. The collection speed is predicated on how much vapor you can get suspended as well as the capacitance of the column to accommodate an optimal amount of suspended vapor or the like.

This assertion does not account for heat loss of the much, much larger systems.

CothermanDistilling · 8 October 2014 12:28PM

@Manofconstantsorrow said:

@CothermanDistilling I read the thread but did not see which one you chose to go with, how is it working for you and what size column are you using it with and what would you recommend to me?

I have not bought yet, funds to buy new gadgets that I don't have time for got taken to near zero. (I have quite a backlog of projects, and you know the old saying, "happy wife, happy life!")

I have 380L with pot-head (and a 4-plate 8" CD in R&D phase) and a sankey with a 8-plate dash-CD hybrid.

On the product condenser side, I have on one 2" long condenser a danfoss valve, I have 2 more danfoss valves in a box, they are what the Kothe comes with and have worked amazingly...

On the reflux condenser side, I have my copper dephleg, I do not have a 8" dephleg yet... I will manually check my flow rates and get the panel mount display that is the closest, for the most accuracy.

@Manofconstantsorrow - what you are building has the look of what I absolutely, 100% believe SD should complete it's CD with. Period... End of sentence... (I say the look, because I have no idea how that valve works without a video, and my brain is spinning too fast starting a business right now to try)

@Lloyd has provided the boilers and CD that look awesome... now to complete that awesomeness with crystal dephlegmators, Crystal Dragon 2nd and 3rd stage columns on shiny cooling water reservoir stands and possibly crystal product condensers on a shiny product collection tank stand... beat the krauts at their own game (and I am a kraut!) I also think that flaming the ends and polishing/smoothing/trimming the fat of the CD flanges should be considered. Sorry for temporarily hijacking this thread, but I feel strongly about crystal taking over the still world!

captainshooch · 8 October 2014 03:16PM

@CothermanDistilling said: but I feel strongly about crystal taking over the still world!

I am with you Mike. I also think @Lloyd is following MOCS build closely, some cool stuff is going to come out of this. Grab a bag of popcorn sit back and watch. I'm ready. You go MOCS, see you ain't so crazy after all. Told you a while back.. "I think you're crazy, but in a good way".... :-c

Manofconstantsorrow · 9 October 2014 03:53AM

Not a lot to report today as I am nursing a bad hip which went out on me last night. I did make a trip the Sam's and picked up 150 lbs of sugar @ 19.00 for 50 lbs, also the local brew store to get 5 packets of Alcotec 24Hr Yeast which if things get back on track tomorrow I may start a sugar mash so I can run a clean out on the weekend. Oh and my buddy the welder says he'll have the reducer done tomorrow! [-O<

Well as I promised daily picks I've chosen to go into detail on what people are curious about, the Modified Crystal BOK collar. As I've stated my concerns about the slant plate design, I looked for design I thought would be a better alternative, so I looked too this design for inspiration;

If you read the post crazy or what post you'll remember that @Myles posted the same drawing for which I based my design, this led to me believing I was headed in the right direction and we machined the collar;

The collar as you've seen in earlier accommodates the CD gasket on both sides and has 1/4 NPT ports for the drain and one for an vapor RTD, the tee is slip fit and will be welded in place when I learn how much depth is needed for the collection cup and reflux;

As I am not sure if the vapor temp will read correctly being placed in the collar, I had a thicker walled 4 inch glass section fab'd and drilled to fit a 1/4 inch NPT to mount a second RTD and placed a top the last glass section before the collar to see which reads the best data for vapor temps;

So now that you seen the crazy which resided in my head let me know what you think about my vision, will it work or will it fail. All comments are good as I may have missed something this is only theory on my part. The first thing I believe I'll need to correct is the take off port will need to be enlarged.

Thanks for looking, MOCS

Lloyd · 9 October 2014 04:09AM

Our glass factory does not offer flame smoothing. Bu yao means no.
We are somewhat married to them because they are the source factory that other glass "factories" buy from and re-sell. They give us great pricing and very low minimum order requirements and they stock the sizes that our CD gaskets are designed to fit.
Other sources want about twice the price and if the glass does not fit our CD gaskets then the minimum order for custom glass is suddenly 10,000 pieces - far beyond our ability to warehouse. I wouldn't want to change the CD gasket or glass size because it would not be backwards compatible with our existing glass.
I can get the glass cut to almost any length but the longer the section the more perilous the shipping.

@CothermanDistilling said ... now to complete that awesomeness with crystal dephlegmators, Crystal Dragon 2nd and 3rd stage columns on shiny cooling water reservoir stands and possibly crystal product condensers on a shiny product collection tank stand...

I couldn't agree more. We tend to make a giant leap and a lot of little baby steps. We'll get there.

Myles · 9 October 2014 02:18PM

That all looks very nice. I am waiting in anticipation to see how you are going to configure the LM takeoff port. Just curious if you have considered the scenario where the RC produces TOO much condensate for the SPP to cope with.

Not sure if you are intending to run at the maximum power level for the SPP. It can get a bit scary.

Manofconstantsorrow · 9 October 2014 02:48PM

@Myles said: That all looks very nice. I am waiting in anticipation to see how you are going to configure the LM takeoff port. Just curious if you have considered the scenario where the RC produces TOO much condensate for the SPP to cope with.

Not sure if you are intending to run at the maximum power level for the SPP. It can get a bit scary.

Having run my Nixon/Stone 2" offset with SPP I learned that 1375 Kw was the sweet spot for power to produce at 96% so I'm thinking that 5500Kw might work well for the 4". As for too much condensate only running it will tell us that, good thing it's made of glass. If the reflux ratio is too much I could fashion a partial quick return to the boiler if I had to or may be adding some sort of plate combination might help if I find that's an issue.

@Myles, glad you chimed in, I was hoping we'd hear from you about this build as I need someone to keep me from getting tunnel vision. Sometimes I can get so focused that one misses the obvious. :-c

punkin · 9 October 2014 06:11PM

I do recall other SPP users (more than one) saying that a perf plate to hold the SPP in was a bust. It wasn't free draining enough and they had flooding problems until going to a single scrubber with a simple wire cage. Just something to keep in mind IF your screen doesn't work.

Manofconstantsorrow · 9 October 2014 08:20PM

@punkin, you are right about that, it was actually @dad that helped bring that issue to light in one of his posts at AD and I believe here as well. I also had similar issues we trying to use a SD 2" filter disk on my set up. I had a long talk with the brother in-law and he is looking for me to send him some SPP to play with so he can dimension out a less restrictive screen plate that will hold the springs intact, mean while I will resize the ones I have. Thanks for the heads up.

punkin · 9 October 2014 08:23PM

No worries mate. i figured you were onto it, you don't miss much.

FullySilenced · 9 October 2014 09:41PM

I use ss expanded metal.. cut in a circle larger then the tube/column, then i cut a line to the center and lap the metal forming a cone.... this i then insert into the tube/column with the cone point up.. so the more i load it the more it seems to hold...

all this is done on my vertical band saw... cut out work wise... but a water cutter or a plasma would be the cats meow i think

Myles · 10 October 2014 12:08AM

Yes some sort of stainless scrubber over a grid with big holes does work. The stainless pad is free draining and the large hole grid supports the weight.

Provided the SPP is strong enough not to distort under its own weight, the pad of stainless fibres seems to work ok even when compressed. It is springy.

I often wondered if you could wind a long length of uncut SPP into a flat pancake coil to go in the bottom of the column.

Manofconstantsorrow · 10 October 2014 04:02AM

Ok boy's as promised here forth coming will be todays pics but first we must answer today' questions.

@punkin said: No worries mate. i figured you were onto it, you don't miss much.

@punkin, thank you sir but really? >:/ I miss things all the time and I am glad that I have this community to catch me and have my back. My apologies if sometimes my response comes of wrong but please understand with out all of you and your support and encouragement what I am doing is meaningless. [-O<

@FullySilenced said: I use ss expanded metal.. cut in a circle larger then the tube/column, then i cut a line to the center and lap the metal forming a cone.... this i then insert into the tube/column with the cone point up.. so the more i load it the more it seems to hold...

all this is done on my vertical band saw... cut out work wise... but a water cutter or a plasma would be the cats meow i think

@FullySilenced, It just so happens that I have the luxury of having kind and gracious brother in-law that just so happens to have a CNC plasma cutter that is rarely used. So my kind friend if you can draft something in cad we can make it happen, or if you can send some pics of what your using we can work it out from there. ( I am hoping)

@Myles said: Yes some sort of stainless scrubber over a grid with big holes does work. The stainless pad is free draining and the large hole grid supports the weight.

Provided the SPP is strong enough not to distort under its own weight, the pad of stainless fibres seems to work ok even when compressed. It is springy.

I often wondered if you could wind a long length of uncut SPP into a flat pancake coil to go in the bottom of the column.

@Myles, The grid I think can be achieved with the disk/screen I posted earlier, the pattern was actually done on a CNC 6 axis mill. So I'm thinking that if we enlarge the 11/64 holes to ? it will work. really it's just a matter of mathematics. If you look back at the pick you will notice that the hole pattern is uniform, the disk thickness is .080, the OD is 4.230 and the outside holes on the centerline measure outside edge to outside edge @ 3.975, if anyone cares to help out in deciding what the 11/64 hole should be enlarged too, please voice your opinion.

The SPP is made of .030 309L SS welding wire and will not crush under its own weight. Well short of flattening the spring coil into a flat pancake It just so happen's that I have wound my SPP into 30 ft coils. If I wind a section of into a CD gasket this is what it looks like, the tension created by the circular pattern of the spring generates forces me to hold the coil flat;

So keeping with this I thought what if I filled the column with uncut lengths, what would that look like;

It is in possible to coil the spring to fill the column solid no matter how much you try to untwist the coil to relieve the tension being generated while loading into the column. But then back to @Myles pervious question.

@Myles said: Just curious if you have considered the scenario where the RC produces TOO much condensate for the SPP to cope with.

So what if @ Myles scenario were to come true? My gut says this shouldn't be a problem but if it were, then maybe if the column were loaded like this and the open center filled with cut SPP it could make for a quick drain on the outside of the column for condensate.

SPOILER ALERT, I should forewarn everyone I found out I have to leave for my last assignment of the year next Tuesday till the end of November, so if it sounds like I am thinking outside of the box it's because me and the misses had a few tonight.

Ok back on track; here's what the fore mentioned idea looks like;

That's the end of todays Q&A.

Now todays progress is that the low profile 8 X 4 reducer is done;<:-P

Manofconstantsorrow · 10 October 2014 05:08AM

Sorry to finish in two posts but some how I up loaded before I was done and ran out of time while I was editing.

Well other then some work that was completed on the product condenser, which I'm not ready to show yet this is all I have.

But I do have to get my welder another quart of Apple Pie Shine after looking at the welds on the the reducer I am reminded how fortunate I am to have good friends. Oh by the way his favorite ways of consuming my Apple Pie Shine are over ice cream and pancakes. Go figure.

Good night Ms. Calabash where ever you are.

MOCS

Lloyd · 10 October 2014 05:25AM

I love this thread!

fadge · 10 October 2014 08:47AM

Yes good stuff, and I will confirm about using the SD filter disks in a ss srubber filled extension section, if pushed they do fail, l no longer use them, but would if l drilled them out a lot. Running slow is not an issue only floods pushing harder. I managed to get over sized scrubbers to hold the coloum in, but it does not have much weight. I like the cone idea.

Cheers.

Fadge

captainshooch · 10 October 2014 10:30AM

Very nice MOCS. Keep it coming =D>

Lloyd · 10 October 2014 11:48AM

They are filer disks, not SPP disks.
I also tried them as SPP disks and they failed/flooded.
SPP needs a very wide support grid and the more open the better.

grim · 10 October 2014 12:13PM

Why not use more surface area to spread the load? Also, while the % open area might not be any greater with larger surface area, the actual open area will be.

Instead of putting the filter disk on the 4" opening, why not put it on the other side of the reducer, on the 6" or 8" side? Too early to do math but putting the filter on a 6" opening should reduce the downward pressure by half on a unit basis, and going to 8" would reduce it by 4, on a unit basis. In addition, the surrounding support area at the rim is greatly enlarged as well, on the 8" side it would be double the linear distance, meaning half as much weight supported by the rim on a unit basis. Open area on the 8" would be 4 times greater than the 4", using the same % open.

It would require a bit more SPP to fill the reducer as well, but should only add nominal additional weight. Also, you may have more deflection. MOCS, why not use exactly the same style of filter plate that you'd developed, only with a thicker plate. However, machine the plate thickness down at the clamping edge so that it doesn't cause any deformation at the clamp joint. This should provide significant additional rigidity of the plate.

If it's too tough to solve the problem where it is, move the problem to a place it's easier to solve.
:))

Myles · 10 October 2014 12:55PM

Not what I had in mind with the uncut lengths, but I suspect that filling the column with cut SPP would work better.

If you can use a pad of stainless scrubbers to support the SPP, then you can use a screen with 1" holes. More of a web i suppose as the screen just has to hold the weight and not stop the SPP falling through the holes.

Or a thicker plate with holes smaller than dia of the SPP but closer together, almost like mesh, just drilled not woven.

If you could trap the screen between the 8" ferrules it certainly would be stronger. Possibly a 1/4" thick plate sized to fit inside the bore of the 4" ferrule, but with a milled thinner extension to fit between the 8" ferrules?

Its a lot of work though - a simple grid to support a stainless scrubber will work.

Welcome!

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MOCS 4 Inch Crystal Modified BOK Build

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