Using Ultrasound

jacksonbrown

In a world where marketing budgets far exceed R&D ones I find better approach is to be sceptical of everything until proven otherwise.

It’s hard to argue with results but too many micro brewers/distiller are just using BS angles to sell a few bottles to groovy bars even though their product is complete rubbish (or just a repackaging/rebranding exercise). The product itself is almost an afterthought half the time.
If you can manufacture enough spank there will always be a line of dudes with beards, thick rim glasses and tattooed necks wanting to find the latest and greatest, most exclusive thing, regardless of what’s actually in the bottle.
Even if it tastes like arse they’ll be telling their fake friends on facade book that it’s ‘AMAAAAZING’.

Is that a bit too sceptical?

FloridaCracker

@jacksonbrown said: In a world where marketing budgets far exceed R&D ones I find better approach is to be sceptical of everything until proven otherwise.

It’s hard to argue with results but too many micro brewers/distiller are just using BS angles to sell a few bottles to groovy bars even though their product is complete rubbish (or just a repackaging/rebranding exercise). The product itself is almost an afterthought half the time.
If you can manufacture enough spank there will always be a line of dudes with beards, thick rim glasses and tattooed necks wanting to find the latest and greatest, most exclusive thing, regardless of what’s actually in the bottle.
Even if it tastes like arse they’ll be telling their fake friends on facade book that it’s ‘AMAAAAZING’.

Is that a bit too sceptical?

No, not at all and that is why I will take the advice of someone who isn't selling something over someone with an angle any day. There will always be snake oil salesmen and it is up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to prove Barnum's theory correct or not.

I personally have not really delved into the "professional" patents or theories regarding US. I just kinda decided that for roughly $70US that I could test it myself. I have nothing to sell and no skin in the game so my opinions are just one guy's observations.

I am kind of pissed that the science is showing that US has a better effect on cut spirits rather than stuff right off of the still. This means that I will have to treat at least 50% more volume now. My unit only treats 2 liters at a time and I run 4-8minute treatments per batch.

I can assure you that if I didn't think that it made a noticeable, positive difference, I sure as shit wouldn't be wasting my time. I have too many other things to do right now. That said, EVERYTHING that comes out of my still will see the US tub at least once.

DonMateo

I have been looking at this for my distillery when I get it up and running and there are ultrasonic rod transducers and I was thinking of getting a couple of those. If you have you spirit stored in a keg or a large container you will be able to stick the transducer in and zap it with US and not have to change vessel. If the keg or whatever it is has your oak in it as well then your doing two processes at the same time.

FloridaCracker

@DonMateo said: I have been looking at this for my distillery when I get it up and running and there are ultrasonic rod transducers and I was thinking of getting a couple of those. If you have you spirit stored in a keg or a large container you will be able to stick the transducer in and zap it with US and not have to change vessel. If the keg or whatever it is has your oak in it as well then your doing two processes at the same time.

Sounds great, just make sure that the frequency is correct or you are probably wasting your time.

Good luck.

DonMateo

The one that I was looking at can do 20 and 40 khz. Although I received a pricing on just one the yesterday and they are US$ 2500 each. Definitely very expensive but for a craft distillery it might be worth it. Especially if you sequence the process right. You could even be blasting the spirit in its storage keg straight after a run, while your still is still runnig.

Anyway, more planning and saving.

grim

@jacksonbrown said: Grim, I think those links are talking about changing the boiling points in the still to break azeotropes, not so much aging related.

You don't think there is a relationship here? It's the closest piece of literature I can find that makes me think that there is something do this (anything coming from someone selling something is obviously suspect). The first piece very clearly shows a relationship between ethanol/ethyl acetate and an increase of the relative volatility/Vapor Liquid Equilibrium (VLE) of the ethyl acetate under sonication. Yes, this would apply to distillation directly, but it would also apply to non-distilling. Isn't this exactly what the results in Telluride's chart are showing? Increase the relative volatility of the acetate, under specific situations, and you allow a portion of it to evaporate off? We're talking about facilitating known chemical reactions - correct - not some kind of Alchemy where we are turning lead into gold. If the sonication didn't turn the ethyl acetate back into ethanol and acetic acid, it must have evaporated. Which was it? Or did something else entirely happen?

In addition, it's the first to show some real hard data on the right frequencies and the necessary power levels to elicit some kind of chemical reaction to take place:

The sonication was found to have significant impacts on the VLE of the system as it alters both the relative volatility and azeotrope point, with preference to lower frequency operation. A maximum relative volatility of 2.32 was obtained at an intensity of 300 W/cm2 and a frequency of 25 kHz coupled with complete elimination of ethanol-ethyl acetate azeotrope.

grim

Or is this just nothing more than acceleration

Jung

So for us gents at home... what about something like this in place of the small HF unit?

They offer a number of sizes, but if we're better off running cut spirit, 10L seems like the minimum I'd want to deal with.

Telluride

@Grim elimination of ethyl acetate along with decreases in n-propanol and isobutanol and increases in n-butanol and amyl alcohol tell me there is more than just a single reaction happening over the course of the catalyst.

Telluride

NM

grim

I was actually reading that link you posted pre-edit earlier this morning.

The other factor with the table is that we don't really know if the other changes are statistically significant, or if we're just seeing noise due to measurement variation. The Ethyl Acetate column looks convincing, the other columns can easily just be noise.

DonMateo

I am not distilling just reasearching but there are some nice US baths for cleaning jewellery that are anywhere from 10 to 30 litres, made from Stainless steel that are cheapish between 300 to 500 dollars. I was thinking of getting a couple for my distillery until I saw about the probe. I was wondering if it would be worth using your Ultrasound on your low wines?? Just a question.

Telluride

@grim, I wonder if doing some simple PH measurements from before and after would be beneficial, pure ethanol is 7.33, pure water is 7, and acetic acid is 2.4, so lets say a 40% solution with no acetic acid should theoretically come up with a 7.132 ph, if any acetic acid was in the solution it would go closer to 7 or maybe even below depending on the ppm's, testing A solution with and without US to see differences could rule out acetic acid as a byproduct of US?

Telluride

I could probably run some tests tomorrow

FloridaCracker

@Jung said: So for us gents at home... what about something like this in place of the small HF unit?

They offer a number of sizes, but if we're better off running cut spirit, 10L seems like the minimum I'd want to deal with.

This would be a huge improvement over the 2 liter size that I have. Just don't want to spend the coin right now.

Telluride

Nope, it should be the same before and after unless it gets more basic, ethyl acetate has the near/same ph value as acetic acid

Telluride

No changes in ph, def some ethyl acetate breaking down into acetic acid and ethanol, I will say that it is not a lie, i am with @FloridaCracker everything tastes much better after US than before, its a small difference but vodka especially has more of a velvety mouthfeel, and these are blind tastings

FloridaCracker

@Telluride said: No changes in ph, def some ethyl acetate breaking down into acetic acid and ethanol, I will say that it is not a lie, i am with FloridaCracker everything tastes much better after US than before, its a small difference but vodka especially has more of a velvety mouthfeel, and these are blind tastings

As I have stated before, I have been the beneficiary of a LOT of tips, help, etc from this site. Posting my positive experiences on this and my rum experiments are aimed at paying that debt back. I have no affiliation to US machines or sales. I am just a hack like most of the rest of you guys, just trying to improve my personal spirit.

I guess the point is, I have no reason to make any of this shit up. I would also step out on a limb and speculate that in 5-10 years this could be a standard way of making better stuff that is accepted by all.

How many people used bubble caps 5-10 years ago?

grim

Bubble caps were invented 200 years ago by Jean Blumenthal in France.

FloridaCracker

I know, but how many guys either knew about them or more importantly, used them in a home setting?

Smaug

Only a few and most if not all of those guys had some sort of background.

The past 8 years has really made a lot of great information available to folks that would have otherwise only been able to acquire the info after a life time of experimentation.

We like to think that our modular concept has helped people to prove or disprove some of the previous mis conceptions about what is legitimate info and what is simply background noise that is taken out of context.

grim

If it weren't for guys like Larry, there wouldn't be caps at home. The theory is easy, the execution and availability are hard.

FloridaCracker

@grim said: If it weren't for guys like Larry, there wouldn't be caps at home. The theory is easy, the execution and availability are hard.

Totally agree. The fact that the caps are available to buy and not just a drawing on a patent makes it a reality. The modular design really makes the sky the limit on what you want to do.

I also remember just a year or so reading that the ProCaps would hamper flavor transfer. I'm another first hand example of how that theory is bullshit. It was probably perpetuated by those who were jealous or competitors.

It seems that this distilling thing is moving in leaps and bounds with improvements. A win win for all of us. Of course the internet is a huge part of it.

Smaug

I appreciate the kind words. There are a bunch of people within the community that that were able to take bits and pieces of their experiences and use that info to create what is now some pretty common knowledge about how simple or how complicated practical distilling can be. Separate and apart from any personal conflicts over who did what and who is responsible for this or that,, the community pushed the growth of knowledge forward.

The StillDragon model is entirely built upon input from the community. No single person can take credit for what the community has been able to achieve.

Many thanks to the community at large.

punkin

I understand what you are saying FC. Theory is all very well but when you have proven results in front of you they can stick their theory up their arse. Whether the theory says it can't work (but does) or whether the theory says it must work (but doesn't) practical experience trumps theory.

Smaug

I'd wager in most (or at least many) instances it is the practice that is proven after the fact.

CothermanDistilling

you are all welcome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhjumPUIUT4

FloridaCracker

So now I have to use US on my mash or wash?

Holy Shit.

DonMateo

I was going to ask. Apparently it works on a mash or wash. Worth trying. Or alternatively stick an ultrasonic transducer to mash tun. It could work. If I had my distillery working I would try it. Matt

grim

Completely different things going on