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Using Ultrasound

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  • I think it'll get warm naturally. Ultrasound will transfer heat. Think about ultrasound welding

  • And while we are at it, has anyone tried magnetic fields? I have done double blind trials on red wine. Neodymium magnet under Pinot for 6 weeks on 2 randomly selected bottles of the same vintage. Put those 2 bottles and another 2 with no magnets in the 10 degc cellar for 6 weeks. Got some wine tasting experts including Philip Murphy who is Dan Murphys son and my cousin whose name I won't drop and all the experts agreed there was a difference. Although admittedly they couldn't agree on how the magnets changed the wine , they all agreed it was a positive change and not a negative one. But the unanimous decision was it was definitely smoother and just different in some way.

  • I tried hypnotizing my gin. I tastes great!

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • Kapea it seems like you are still dragon forums troll always quick to belittle and be Negative in a lot of threads I have read on here. I am new to this hobby and was assured that this forum was different to others being that it was friendly and helpful I'm hoping that isn't changing. So far I am impressed with what I have experienced. Just saying. I have a ultrasonic cleaner I will try once I have a few samples to compare. Unsensible it is my understanding that the vibration makes the molecules rub against each other causing friction and as such heat the long and harder it vibrates the more heat it produces. Does heating the liquid decrease viscosity therefor allowing the molecules to more easily vibrate and speed up the aging process ? Trying to recall 10 th grade physics class I wasn't attentive in haha.

  • edited June 2015

    WARNING SCIENCE CONTENT

    From wiki.

    Spectral measurements have given bubble temperatures in the range from 2300 K to 5100 K, the exact temperatures depending on experimental conditions including the composition of the liquid and gas.[2] Detection of very high bubble temperatures by spectral methods is limited due to the opacity of liquids to short wavelength light characteristic of very high temperatures.

    From a chemical engineer.

    It gets hot enough inside those ultrasonic bubbles to melt steel. Trying to work out how ultrasonic treatment affects the alcohol, these massively high temperatures should be the starting point. The gas bubbles created would implode on themselves. This would leave a liquid saturated with super heated gas that would consist of all the liquids converted to gas present in the solution. Even though the liquid would not get above 60 degc the gas bubbles would still be in the solution at a far greater temperature than the solution itself. The gases would rise through the liquid and dissipate into the atmosphere. The volume of liquid lost would be equal for all components in the solution until you are left with only one component of liquid. Your solution would be empty of all components except ethanol if treated long enough. The super heating realigns the molecules and causes some of them to bind together making larger molecules of ethanol. This may be what you can taste as being smoother alcohol and less harshness on the tongue. Also not every molecule of ethanol in the solution is pure. Some molecules will have an extra atom of hydrogen or sulphur attached to them. Since there isn't any room for a carbon, hydrogen or oxygen atom. When you super heat the liquid into a gas you are breaking this bond and releasing these extra atoms.

    Edit Can't see anything in here about hypnotism. The smart guy must be wrong then. Go figure.

  • Are there clouds passing by?

    Trolling, bullying or belittling does not fit in here. I'm sure @Kapea did not mean it that way, it would be ridiculous to disturb our friendly environment like that. Whatever the magic, if ultrasound, ozone, magnetism or hypnosis, if you don't believe in it, stay clear and let others do their thing. We are an open-minded and professional global community, and pretty much everything can be discussed here without interference. Let's keep it that way!

    Your Place to be >>> www.StillDragon.org <<< Home of the StillDragon® Community Forum

  • edited June 2015

    Funny that you call me a troll in one breath Johnboy, and then cite molecular friction with the next.

    I have been using Japanese PASS technology to ultrasonically treat spirits for nearly 10 years now. What you percieve as trolling is a humorous way (in light of FC's humorous previous post) to illustrate the physics of what molecular excitation does to '"age" spirits.

    As far as being called a troll - I've been called worse by better. No big ting bruddah.

    AND I am definetly not going to share the results of my using feng shui to age my rum!

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • edited June 2015

    I was actually asking @Unsensibel a question. But hey I guess you got to put me in my place!

  • edited June 2015

    However I do agree that @FloridaCracker's description was gold.

  • edited June 2015

    Sorry but it's not considered trolling in a thread like this, it's constructive skepticism, and is absolutely required.

    Not only skepticism, but a certain kind of snarky, biting skepticism, which serves as a counterbalance to the obvious lack of rigorous process necessary for these kinds of things. It is understandable that this might be confused with trolling, but it's not.

    I wasn't joking when I said, above, if it ain't double blind, it don't count. The amount of potential bias in the way we are approaching this is astronomical, so high in fact, that I'd argue that no matter process you try, the results are wildly flawed and worthless. So flawed and worthless, that simply based on my understanding of the mathematics behind these biases, I'd wager large sums of money on the fact that the results are entirely incorrect.

    If it ain't double blind, it don't count

    Not only that, but you must have a sufficient number of trials to determine if your result is statistically significant or simply due to chance.

    Otherwise, the level of bias here is astronomical.

    Experimenter's Bias - Subjective bias of the experimenter towards their own desired result. We are not talking about obvious fraud, we are talking about unconscious bias. This is wanting the data to show that you think it will show. Seeing, tasting, hearing things in a way that doesn't really exist.

    Observer-Expectency Effect (aka Observer Bias) - Bias on the part of the subject when the experimenter unconsciously communicates subtle cues towards the expected outcome. This can be as simple as a slight smile from the experimenter when waiting for the subject to communicate the result.

    Response Bias - Subjective bias on the part of the subject where they respond in a way that they think the experimenter wants them to respond in. It could be as simple as stating "Here, now try this one, that I put through my new process".

    In addition, you can take this one step further by including discrimination testing in the results, using something called ABX testing. In this scenario, in addition to the subject identifying which sample, A or B, is their preference, they must also match A or B, to a randomized sample X, to ensure they can actually identify a difference between A and B to the level where they can accurately identify X, and are not simply guessing.

    If it ain't double blind, it don't count

    I would argue one more step, that these trials should run triple blind, meaning that the experimenter (ourselves), are not at all part of the double-blind trials, we only get to see the results after the fact. Single blind minimizes subject bias, double blind minimizes experimenter bias, triple blind minimizes analytical bias plus the other two.

    If it ain't double blind, it don't count, anything else is snake oil.

  • Why don't we all come up with a process/procedure for trials, one that we can all agree on, and then based on that, we can come up with some templates/spreadsheets that can be easily filled out. We can build the spreadsheets so that they will do the statistical calculations for you. Google docs, Excel, whatever. You follow the process, you input the data, you share the result.

  • @grim, I agree that there should be some sort of process that we follow even if loosely. I will readily admit that as the guy trying to smooth out his spirit, I WANT it to work, therefore tainting the trials somewhat. Hard to be objective when you want a certain outcome. Double blind works for me but it hard unless you have help running the tests. So in the future, I will call any of my trials wild successes because I never allow myself to fail.

    8-}

    @Johnboy, there is something that you should know about @Kapea; he is a smartass with a sense of sarcasm almost exactly like mine. His comments are probably directed at my sarcastic comments and as a fellow smartass, I totally get it. As the OP of this thread, I pretty much opened it up for any comments, critics, Einsteins, naysayers, etc. Actually I expected to get bashed worse than I did but I honestly believe that this process holds promise. How much? Who knows.

  • Trust your self and your taste buds.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • @johnboy - I'm also a little fuzzy on the school knowledge. As far as I remember, all temperature in a mass is how much the atoms & molecules are in motion. Higher temp thus equals to more motion. I think the US does more than just heat up, but my point was that the heating up is going to be a result of US treatment.

    @grim - Double blind shouldn't be too hard to set-up & you can make it triple by posting the raw data for interpretation.

  • I didn't test the temp increase on the treatment last night. I will do it on the next one. I am also thinking of giving it another couple of US treatments after I proof it down. Since there is obviously more oxygen in water than the alcohol, maybe it will have a positive effect after proofing as well.

  • @Kapea said: I tried hypnotizing my gin. I tastes great!

    You probably just did it so that you could take advantage of it.

  • @Moonshine said:

    Are there clouds passing by?

    Trolling, bullying or belittling does not fit in here. I'm sure Kapea did not mean it that way, it would be ridiculous to disturb our friendly environment like that. Whatever the magic, if ultrasound, ozone, magnetism or hypnosis, if you don't believe in it, stay clear and let others do their thing. We are an open-minded and professional global community, and pretty much everything can be discussed here without interference. Let's keep it that way!

    You forgot exposure to Sex Pistol music. That could be the only thing that scares the bad shit enough to make it leave our distillate.

  • If it ain't double blind, it don't count , or if it ain"t triple blind, it don't count ? I try to keep the testing as non-bias as possible sometimes I'm not even there I'm a 1000 miles away and I have them take notes on there samplings.90% of the time UL treatment wins. As grim stated we need to come up with away for all of us using UL treatment to test the same way and see what we come up with.I'm just a country boy with this distilling bug cant get enough of messing with things.There are some smart men on this form and I have learned a lot. And I'm sure to learn some more willing to try what ever testing protacall we come up with.

  • edited June 2015

    Hypnotize may be too strong of a word. I had a staring contest with a bottle of my homemade gin... The gin won. But boy does it taste good now that it has been resting for a few weeks.

    Of course you can see that since it was a staring contest it was not blind on any count - single, double, etc.

    However, after nearly ten years, empirically speaking I have observed:
    The "aging" effect of ultrasonic treatment is real.
    The higher the abv of the beverage being treated the more pronounced the effect. The effect is not caused by cavitation
    Oxidation is a separate "aging" phenomenon

    I was given a sonic treatment system by a sake and shochu maker in 2005. He wanted me to use it on my meads and give him feedback. (He's not blind either). He observed that it works faster on shochu than on sake.

    BTW I was just kidding about the feng shui stuff...

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • OK, I am visiting family back home, and nearby is this place:

    Ultrasonic Flow-through Reactors - Ultrasonic Power Corporation

    I called, and they stated that they have had quite a few distilleries and wineries buy their products. The 1000W is about $6k, and is 9" round x22" long with 1" NPT pipe fitting standard, the 2000w is $13k, 14"x79" and has 3" NPT fittings standard.

    they are having an engineer call me back...

  • Wow Mike that would be cool to get some info from people who are spending big coin on this stuff.

  • they said they get zero feedback from users (likely due to the proprietary nature of the business), so I have them researching what repeat distillery customers bought.... ;-)

  • @grim said: Why don't we all come up with a process/procedure for trials, one that we can all agree on, and then based on that, we can come up with some templates/spreadsheets that can be easily filled out. We can build the spreadsheets so that they will do the statistical calculations for you. Google docs, Excel, whatever. You follow the process, you input the data, you share the result.

    Hmmm...A process/procedures committee?

    Question. What is a camel? Ans. A racehorse designed by a committee.

  • Who doesn't like a good hump?

  • @CothermanDistilling why not take 2x 600w ultrasonic cleaners(i bought mine for $600), chop them up and tig weld them back together and you get yourself a 1200w flow through ultrasonic reactor for about $1200, you could prob do something nice and trick and weld a 4" triclamp onto it for easy clean out

  • Would imagine that the positioning and geometry of transducers, as well as the resonance of the channel itself (as well the liquid) would make a huge impact. Just like speakers, you can create odd situations where certain frequencies completely cancel each other out at specific points in space, or likewise, certain frequencies are amplified by resonances caused by the shape of the space.

    Got to be more to it than simply the elements and a tube. The location of elements and geometry has got to be a factor.

  • The ultra-sound transmitters I've seen in use are designed for batch reactors, not plug flow reactors like the one shown in the link above. They are mounted on a metalic aging vessel and run continuously for weeks at a time. They are significantly less expensive than the prices quoted above too. Identifying the correct (resonance) frequency for the beverage being treated is important.

    Most everyone using this technology sees it as a competitive advantage, so finding objective data is like finding trade secrets. Word is slowly leaking out. I think the technology will be ubiquitous in the not so distant future.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • Get in on the ground floor :))

  • edited June 2015

    @grim there isnt much calculated positioning going on, it is a tube with transducers, why is it so expensive? Because there arent that many mfgs and/or buyers to have a market to produce these in any form besides one off production. Sometimes people try to think too far past what they are actually trying to accomplish, arent you just trying to break down certain bonds within your spirit so that they form new ones? Ever seen the tiny ultrasonic probes they use in a lab? I'm sure the only positioning they are worried about is getting it in the erlenmeyer and then turn it on. Sure multiple transducers could affect each other, but it doesnt seem to affect flow through reactors where they face each other, nor does it seem to affect batch reactors which have them all right next to each other. You are trying to compare varying frequencies at varying power levels to one set frequency and one set power level.

    image

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    800 x 600 - 65K
  • edited June 2015

    You can get 50-60 watt elements on eBay for $20-30 a pop. Sure if you purchased a few dozen of these from China you could probably get them half the price. Plenty of other vendors selling the power supply boards too.

    Tack weld a row of threaded studs on a piece of TC spool and then epoxy for good measure.

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