StillDragon North America Bulletin Board

Fiji_Spirits

I’ll probably want one or two of the HX from Punkin in the next two months. I think I’ll need to build a continuous 4” shortly. I’m commissioning a new operation and upgrading my biofuel/moonshine outfit for a larger product line and scaling production for wholesaling neutral to other clients.

In short I’m entering a significant building stage and I’ll be counting on you guys for all the important components.

punkin

Talk to Larry mate, i won't be stocking them in the near future unless there is considerable interest here.

CothermanDistilling

Stumpy's looks awesome, however, I cannot ever see my distillery needing 40g/hr out at 140 proof, what is that, 400gal/hr in at 7%? I know aspen does not so that small, but seat of the pants says that if a 12" procap column has 18 procaps, and a 4" has 3 procaps, we are at 1/6 the capacity... literally perfect for me... 6 hours to that 400 gal, throw in a fudge factor and lower it to 6 hours to do 250gal/1000L... literally perfect... exactly what I want... add to that the other guy I sent to you wants about the same output, and Fiji wants one... shit, that is three right there... I mainly want the stripping column portion to test and develop. but might be interested in a palletized system with bottoms reboiler and lots of HX length to get it closer to a perpetual motion machine... I don't want a PLC on there unless I built it...

jbierling

@CothermanDistilling said: Stumpy's looks awesome, however, I cannot ever see my distillery needing 40g/hr out at 140 proof,

I'd like a continuous system that could strip 600 gallons in 6 hours (I can't really imagine ever wanting to do more than 1200g but my crystal ball is cracked). However, I don't see switching my spirit run to a continuous system. A continuous spirit run seems "industrial" to me, not craft, but maybe a tour of Stumpy's would change my mind.

Just trying to imagine grain in 4", I think 4" would be too small given 1/2" drains. I would think 6-8" would be the min size for grain (and for me, grain is a necessity).

Anyway, really cool stuff. A continuous cooker would be great too.

Smaug

@CothermanDistilling said: Stumpy's looks awesome, however, I cannot ever see my distillery needing 40g/hr out at 140 proof, what is that, 400gal/hr in at 7%? I know aspen does not so that small, but seat of the pants says that if a 12" procap column has 18 procaps, and a 4" has 3 procaps, we are at 1/6 the capacity... literally perfect for me... 6 hours to that 400 gal, throw in a fudge factor and lower it to 6 hours to do 250gal/1000L... literally perfect... exactly what I want... add to that the other guy I sent to you wants about the same output, and Fiji wants one... shit, that is three right there... I mainly want the stripping column portion to test and develop. but might be interested in a palletized system with bottoms reboiler and lots of HX length to get it closer to a perpetual motion machine... I don't want a PLC on there unless I built it...

Ah sure. You and Joel for example have a good sense for what you need on a part by part basis.

My issue is with,, for example,,,,"the dude" that has a less than a small kettle, and barely has enough power to run his small kettle at optimal speeds. Then wants a turnkey continuous apparatus to out perform his small still,,,that doesn't have enough power.

And yet the "dude" is unwilling to upgrade power (and cooling capacity), yet wants me to engineer a turnkey apparatus that will match his available power and also out perform his existing still,,,,that he doesn't have enough power to drive optimally.

Never even mind that ASPEN doesn't "go" that small in our available iteration.

CothermanDistilling

That is another thing, I think we need more efficiency, so less power and cooling... the required numbers are way, way too high IMHO... more and longer HX's, more efficiency.... make that wash partially vaporize as it enters the still due to the pressure drop across a (large enough for solids) orifice...

Smaug

@CothermanDistilling said: That is another thing, I think we need more efficiency, so less power and cooling... the required numbers are way, way too high IMHO... more and longer HX's, more efficiency.... make that wash partially vaporize as it enters the still due to the pressure drop across a (large enough for solids) orifice...

However,,can't get blood from a stone.

For our purposes, it's all about speed/BTU/ per hour ratio for most. We can talk about hypothetical design till the cows come home. But ultimately it's about cost then, isn't it?

Speed requires BTUs and/or the preservation of BTUs.

A BTU is a fixed unit no matter how many times you slice/candy coat it.

Heat exchange? Tell me what you want.

CothermanDistilling

You don't need to get blood from a stone if you capture the blood you are pouring all over the stone to begin with... 10Kw/1boiler HP can vaporize a LOT of alcohol if you are recovering 80% of the energy...

with no heat recovery:

heating 300gal/hr to vapor point takes 10Boiler HP

vaporizing the 40gal/hr as output takes another 5 HP...

recover 2/3 of the heat, 66.7% of the energy, you are down to just needing 5HP

get it to 80% and it is 3HP (a mere 30kw in electric elements)

same with cooling... Cooling water required (XLSX)

Fiji_Spirits

My plan was to use a rims heater to bring the wash up to final temp before entry to column. This inefficiency should be easier to run and less prone to balance issues. Plus it could shorten my commissioning time allowing me more time to optimize later.

I’m just happy to see components half the fun is the engineering.

crozdog

IMO, as previously stated, a "small" continuous stripping system needs to process 1-2000l per shift. Plenty of craft distillers in that patch.

crozdog

@Fiji_Spirits said: My plan was to use a rims heater to bring the wash up to final temp before entry to column. This inefficiency should be easier to run and less prone to balance issues. Plus it could shorten my commissioning time allowing me more time to optimize later.

I’m just happy to see components half the fun is the engineering.

I've been trying that. It's another control loop to manage... just saying ;)

richard

A quick start of the next HX assy. 2m long. *-:)

Smaug

Of course @CothermanDistilling. Capturing heat cost money too is mostly my point.

CothermanDistilling

With 4 12mm tubes vs 7 9mm tubes, we lose 25% of the surface area.. that is a lot... Is there any way to alleviate that loss? a 5th tube would be only a negligible loss... Also, can they do the twisted tubes in 12mm, I think you said 19mm before...

Smaug

I worry the smaller tubes will jamb up. The 12s have an ID of 10mm Remember that solids will travel through either side and there needs to be enough clearance to insure unobstructed flow in the shell as well.

Ah yes let me add the twisted tubes.

Smaug

If I add a 5th tube with a 10 mm OD there will only be a 2 mm clearance space around the center through tube. I don't think that is safe.

We can go with a larger shell, but the current 2" x 36" iteration will sell for $275.

CothermanDistilling

OK, for solids, sounds like 4 is the max... I will take 2.

CothermanDistilling

if the inside tubes can be a bit thinner for better heat transfer across and less longitudinally, even better... Regular SD condensers are stronger than a baseball bat, maybe we can trade a bit of overdesign for more efficiency?

Smaug

I'll inquire. I'm not sure how many thickness choices there are for the twisted pipe/tubing?

CothermanDistilling

oh, the 4 are twisted? awesome... wasn't sure if that was possible with 12mm.. I am thinking all the twisted ones are pretty thin to begin with.. I am happy as long as we put some effort into getting the best HX efficiency bang for the buck!

Smaug

Yeah I don't know how to draw the twisted tubes yet so didn't put em in the drawing.

CothermanDistilling

those things will ROCK...

punkin

Larry remember the condensor we saw the first trip there that had 2" ferrules on a 2.5" body tube, just necked down slightly like a round of ammo?

Smaug

@punkin said: Larry remember the condensor we saw the first trip there that had 2" ferrules on a 2.5" body tube, just necked down slightly like a round of ammo?

Yes was beautiful.

richard

@smaug not sure if I understand the comment regarding the 12mm diam tubes. In my 50mm condenser, I use 7 x 12mm tubes. Plenty of space.

Smaug

Hi Richard, are you presently using a grain in beer as your cooling medium?

My concern is that if grain in solids don't have enough clearance to freely pass through the jacket there will be a clog and also make for difficult cleaning.

It's a non issue with no solids. But so many people want the ability to run solids and so....

richard

You're 100% correct wrt. to grain in beer. I am busy building the next part which is a mash / wort cooler which is specifically designed for grain in beer.... But the cooling medium in this case must be solid free, for reasons as you have mentioned above. In this case, the unit that I am doing / building has a 3.96m2 surface area. It's modular expandible.

I will post some pics in the next 10 days as it ought be complete by then.

jbierling

@Smaug said: If I add a 5th tube with a 10 mm OD there will only be a 2 mm clearance space around the center through tube. I don't think that is safe.

We can go with a larger shell, but the current 2" x 36" iteration will sell for $275.

I think I might be interested in two as well. Any reason for the decision on doing 2” diameter instead of something like 3”? Is 2” what Stumpy is using? Why mixed 1.5" and 2” connections?

So what I’m picturing is using these for mashing. All grain gets ground and added to the cooker. But instead of using the cooker to complete cooking, pump from the output of the cooker (probably around 85F) into the uncooked input of one of these (HX1) The other input gets cooked mash achieving both preheat for the uncooked mash and cooling for the cooked mash. The mash then continues to HX2 where it gets hit with 10-15psi steam being generated from the BM cooker increasing the temp to near boiling. The mash then continues back to HX1 as previously described and into another vessel for final cooling.

I've done some testing with a spare 3" dephlegmator, and I think in concept this would work. The main problem I had was until I purged all the air from the BM jacket, steam did not flow. I had to take the jacket up to 15 psi, vent to zero, pressure back up to 15, back to zero, then steam flowed.

Concerns are: Is enough time is spent at high temp to achieve a full cook? Would additional piping be required to keep it at temperature for a given amount of time (milk pasteurization does this)? Will the throughput rate be too slow (enough surface area)? Will borrowing steam from the BM work? Can I keep the BM at 10+ psi while its full (I suspect that the jacket purging would vastly improve heat transfer keeping the psi low)? Would HX1 (preheat & cooling) need to be a lot bigger than HX2 (cook) given HX2 would be getting 240F steam?

CothermanDistilling

a 3" one will likely be 2x the money.. and SD already has the mash cooling ladder style chillers if you want to cool mash......

interesting thought on purging air from the jacket... great, I will be thinking about that all day tomorrow...

jbierling

@CothermanDistilling said: a 3" one will likely be 2x the money..

Might HX 2x better.

@CothermanDistilling said: and SD already has the mash cooling ladder style chillers if you want to cool mash......

I have a 60' 2" inside 3" one I built which works fine, but it seems silly to spend all this energy and time heating up only to use even more energy cooling down. My tube in tube chiller isn't designed to pass mash in the jacket and I'd need two of them. I'll still use it for the final cooling since what I've outlined above probably won't cool to much below 100F.

@CothermanDistilling said: interesting thought on purging air from the jacket... great, I will be thinking about that all day tomorrow...

I'm interested myself in how much purging will affect my strips. I'll find out Wednesday.