Bubble Caps vs Sieve Plates Pros/Cons

googe

Harley, your posts make my brain hurt! :)) . You certainly have found your calling in life, great to see someone so passionate about there hobby ^:)^ . Yes I just found out how to post the smilies lol. Myles, I have single caps so don't know if it relates, but every time I pull apart my still and clean it I get crap ABV everytime till I put a few runs through it. Probably gasket issues with them settling in but I don't know.

emptyglass

Miles, thats all I ever do, a steam run after I'm finished. I don't run rum all the time, but it does leave a deposit on the inside. I guess if you were going 8 hrs a day, 5 days a week on the same rum, it might become an issue.

harley

Hello, Well I always try to do my best and I look a little different in almost every detail than many others, I try to maximize everything as much as I can and this is less important for individual use as a hobby, and the difference is not so great in such small columns that 4" is but it will be 4 times greater in an 8", think about this .... but when it gets comersiellt then you must see some things differently and equipment cost, time to maximize it, is a one time investment, but the equipment capability and simple handling is something you have to live with every time you use it ... so I try to really get to the bottom of it all as much as I can, but I do not spend as much time anymore, only about 20-30 hours a week in the technology .... have to catch and do some work with the distillery premises also ... Cleaning after distillation is something I intend to do with warm-hot water every time I'm done and it would be based on the contamination then I intend to remove the colon and put everything in citric acid overnight then there will be 100 % clean .... you will remember my bath, I will keep this for future purposes ..

Cheers

harley

Something that I think about all the time, though it is not so important for home users and hobby use. Efficiency, maximum product eliminator per hour If I can increase production in a 4 "sieve column with 1 liter per hour, this means 4 liters per hour in an 8" and it may be that this will be my profit ... Now maybe you will understand a little better why I put so extremely much time on this with optimization ... and this is less important for personal hobby use, then it is more important that you yourself can make as much as possible of the equipment itself .... Now I hope that you can understand how I see things ... I complain not of the solutions of others without trying to get to my own to the max ... and it's all about money in the last end ...and we see things in a little different time perspective..

Cheers

punkin

Mosca put some pics up of scaley plates from mollasses the other day.

Myles

Harley I understand perfectly why optimisation is important for you. Are you producing a range of products on the same column (sorry if you have explained this before) or is this column aimed directly at producing a clean neutral grain spirit every time.

IIRC the scaling is really an issue for the rum producers, and might not be that relevant for anyone else.

At the higher power levels and vapour speeds, do you need to divert some of the reflux directly back to the boiler? In theory, it is possible to get to a point where you produce too much reflux for the plates, so reflux splitting could be an option.

harley

Hi Myles Yes you have absolut right in this with to much reflux and splitting is maybe not so bad idea....

I intend to run only vodka - neutral in my 20pc plates copper colon and this with reflux and its impact on the design is very interesting to take a closer look at. Sieve plates work best with small to moderate reflux specially if you have many of them and in relly low level of the plates for the higher flat level, the higher the pressure and the worse the function of the return tubes and then you need to increase the diameter of the return pipe while liquid level on the plates also increases- gets higher .. bad cirkel....

Now this is not so sensitive if you only have about 3-6pc plates but this problem increases with the number plates and when, as in my case, 20pc when i wants to keep the fluid level properly so no back pressure becomes too great and ... you end up in a vicious circel ... it can also be as you say a problem with the amount of reflux is too big when you have as many as 20pc plates and I have actually found that I have to use my 20pc sieve colon in a different way than you do with a minor number plates. You reflux 100% at the beginning and even quite a while after you have filled the plates with reflux to "stack" fraktionerna in the column before you start to collekt them slowly

I will just reflux as long as the need to fill the plates then so I expect to reduce reflux so I do not have a problem with that it becomes too much reflux licuid as more or less "choking" the bottom plates. I will therefore have to distill with a higher temp in my reflux cooler than what you are doing with less number of tiles and this is something I will be following with great interest how this affects both % as the final product, I can compare this to my other lower columns and the same sieve plates in only 3-6pc sektion. To counter this potential problem that may occur when i have many sieve plates at each other, maybe you should increase the size of the return pipe in relation to the number of plates, now I have chosen 28mm and it should be enough 22-24mm really, but we'll see how everything plays together once I'm up and running but I have to distill in a different way than what you are doing with less number of plates that's for sure ... I intend in the future to build a specific column only for the kind of spirit and resultate that I want to produce and in this way I can really maximize all at 100%, but my sieve plates shall be same I hope only in differents number to reach that a want..

SD's modular 8 "is a very good design for where you can quickly and easily reduce or increase the number of tiles-plates in a simple and fast way

Cheers

harley

Some own ideas and solutions that I have come to, but only "theoretical" ;-)

When speaking of sieve plates and its ability to return the reflux so it is only through the return pipe at any level on the plate and become the level too high - floding so can not the steam pressure to maintain balance and then there is the risk that the collapse and trigger a chain reaction in plates below.

I see no advantage to having a higher fluid level than about 10-12mm on the return pipe to the plate will only correspond 1pc distillation and the higher the level of liquid on the plate, the higher the pressure required to maintain balance and the risk increases that "djump" can reach the next flattened underside and infect it with reflux liquid, the higher the liquid level on the plates should mean higher-greater distance between the plates, and it should even bigger hole in the plate mean for then it can also scatter higher.

My own conclusion is that one should not have more - higher fluid level than you have to sieve plates to work, everything else can be detrimental ...

This, with the hole size is interesting to take a closer look at ... I claim to 1.5mm hole is the optimum hole size for me and the way I use my equipment on. With such small holes 1.5mm so it will be many holes instead of fewer and bigger holes to achieve the same hole% and this means that destillationsbandet becomes much wider and even "djump" becomes less so you can have the plates closer together without risk of infecting the underside of the plate above ... and the plate requires much less back pressure to maintain balance so you want to have higher fluid level than a 10-12mm then you should have small holes and many of them, but why higher fluid level than what the minimun required to wourk perfect!

Many say that the sieve plates have a reduced ability to return the reflux than bubbelcaps, valvtray and other types of plates, this is true if one takes into account that the other types can return by-throu bubbelcapsen, valves - the valves on the liquid level is too high and also act-wourking ... this can not sieve plates but then collaps them entirely instead, but the problem still remains for returning the other types by the amount of steam - construction then something is wrong in the operation or design of the plates, but they get right to work, albeit poorly ...

Then there is another side to the height of liquid level on the plate to think about, the taste is in the vapor and the reflux contains much less flavor than the steam causes the higher flat level you have, the less flavor you get with it ....

Then if we look at the hole% of the wet active area where the plate is attached to the column, IMPORTANT ... it's hole% which determines how much steam that the plate can receive and carry on to the next level while maintaining pressure on the smaller hole% the higher pressure is required to get the same amount of vapor through the column and the higher the pressure the worse the function return tubes ...

The smaller the hole you have on the plate, the higher the hole% can have the same effect-power on the boiler without plate collapses and the more product provides plate and the wider the "band" of the plate requires less back pressure to "carry" the pressure - the weight as the liquid level generates, though the higher the liquid level the more pressure is needed, worse function to return the reflux, etc. .... so high liquid level in the sieve plates are not good, and this is more important the more plates you have the more backpressure needed ...

Now I will use my equipment commercially and counting on everyting ... and this means taking into account power consumption, water consumption, time and puts this in relation to product per hour - flow that it takes to distill a bach, - full boiler.

I intend to refux minimal, no more than what I need for the plates to function optimally and the strength and purity, I get the number plates instead of high reflux use because it is not commercially distilling that way commercially, but for the home - Private as in some other conditions ... I therefore intend to reign my strength -%, purity and taste with the number of plates and not reflux ...

Cheers ps : a hope that my -google translation have translate this so you understand what am wright.

spud1700

Harley, Are you saying that small holes of 1.5mm is the best and the liquid level on the plates should be no deeper thank 12mm?

harley

Hi Spud. What I am saying is that with small holes that 1,5mm is, so you can have a much higher hole% and there is a hole% which determines how much steam and ultimately product that can get through the colon size and com out as product on the other end ....

And with smaller holes then the band as column functions between larger, and it works better at low power output and also very good at max power output as determined by the hole%.

Holes% is well known already by virtually everyone who is interested in sieve plates and the recommended hole% are between 5% and up to 10% max of the wet active flat surface at the flat surface mounting on the column and then you have to also take account for any leakage between the plates and the column wall in the calculations.

The last thing I was convinced, was told by a person with a lot of knowledge about different types of destillationsplattor is that with such small holes 1.5mm so you can go up to 12%, though this does not i dare me with copper plates where holes can be little larger after a time, if i go to 12% with 1,5mm hole when i wants to have steel plates in ss ....

With 2mm hole so I think 8-9% hole% is the max if you should have a "band" left so it works for batch distillation, and not only on-in-at maximum power, that is also lower-less produkt out of it than the 1.5 mm hole and 10% holes % shall give it,s all about hole % - produkt per hour....

It's all about surface tension, back pressure, hole% and available power versus speed and product per hour ....

Remeber that a have 20pc in 8" when a talk about 10-12mm licuidheight....

But this is my own personal opinions, calkulations based on the experiences of others and I share this with you though each one does exactly what they want and believe in ... it,s a free wourld ;-)

Cheers

harley

Hi again Spud, I will try to explain what I mean by that 10-12mm liquid height on sieve plates - tray would be optimal for me in 8 "and my way both distill and look at things as I have 20pc plates high.

If I have as today 14-15mm height on my returns, which I have in my copper column as needed approximately 22 000 watt when it is sitting on top of my insulated boiler and has about 14-15mm return pipe height to get about 15 liters per hour . ( it have only about 8,5% hole area with 1,5mm hole) All of this data is based on calculations.

If I were to reduce the height of the return pipes to say 10mm then I guess – think-have calculated I would achieve the same results with only about 20 000 watt for the steam would go easier through the column when I have less liquid height on the plates which require a certain back pressure to does not collapse and the lower the liquid level, the smaller back pressure and requires less power, it shall takes less power to achieve the same results.

I might "save" 2 000 watt per hour with this modification and gets same results in product per hour, the only question is how it will affect the taste and%, but this I have to get back to it, because it must be tested in practice.

Something that I also have to take into account is that my plates are not 100% straight in the wave as it gets with both glass column and ss column so here has SD column a huge advantage against soldering the plates, it note so easy to solder the plate in 100% wave...

But you have also some “self” reflux on the column wall and this is different in different column materials and also height between the plates, which also generates reflux must be taken into account when talking power need and power savings using different materials for different materials provide different power need and give also in the end a little different results.

"this was hevy to wright so it gets it hopfully right so you understand it in english" a relly need a better translating program than google....

Cheers

harley

Corrected calculations:

97,70mm column diameter between 2pc 4” ferrules = wet active plate size = 29.987,41 mm3 volume

SD downcomers = 22mm = 1.520,53 mm3 volume

29.987,41 - 1.520,53 = 28.466,88 mm3 volume = wet active plate area between 2pc 4” ferrules with 1pc SD downcomer subtracted

Hole  | Volume | % to number of holes
===============================================================================================
1,5mm |   7,07 | 7% = 281pc | 8% = 322pc | 9% = 362pc | 10% = 402pc (this is what a think is max)
1,6mm |   8,04 | 7% = 247pc | 8% = 283pc | 9% = 318pc
1,7mm |   9,08 | 6% = 188pc | 7% = 219pc | 8% = 250pc
1,8mm |  10,18 | 6% = 167pc | 7% = 195pc
1,9mm |  11,34 | 6% = 150pc | 7% = 175pc
2,0mm |  12,57 | 6% = 135pc | 7% = 158pc

Now you all can't do this wrong

The higher you go up the hole % the lower the liquid level on the plates, probably 10-12mm is appropriate if over 8%, but also the number of plates = many plates less liquid level on plate, this also matters .. something that must be determined in real life ...

Cheers

Pretender

Hi all, I am a novice, or not :), distiller of the Polish. At first I would like to apologize for my English, but I will try to write correctly.

By searching the Internet I came across Stilldragon namely Crystal Dragon and immediately fell in love! It was love at first sight :) At the moment, happy to look through and read all the information related to the dragon, looking for solutions that I can use. As I understand browsing this topic is the importance of sieve plates thickness / height plates. And what about the bubble cup? Is the height of the plates affects the final product or process?

Regards Pretender

nvnovrts

@harley said: RDD am relly intressed in yours mash from wheat and how to convert starch into sugar...

learn about "conversion" and enzymes. pretty straight forward science but the devil is in the details.

punkin

Welcome Pretender. Glad to have you on board. I'm sure one of our plate theory enthusiasts will be along to answer your questions shortly.

Pretender

Thank you for your welcome :) Unfortunately, in my country are more popular designs such Bokakob (Nixon), AAbratek, head-can, and most ordinary Pot Still :). Unfortunately (for the second time), our designers very often construct equipment without paying attention to appearance, not to mention the action! Your machine, no matter what the structure, are made with attention to detail, how important, sure did?

I know that it landed, ii I'm going to pull on you all the knowledge: D

Regards

punkin

Not familar with the aabratek, can you post a link to some more info or photos?

crozdog

@punkin, its a slant head LM setup. the reflux return / product takeoff is at the base of the slant next to the join of the vertical column.

there was a discussion on HD a few years back. I'm sure you can find it - just google "aabratek images"

Stinger

Isn't the AAbratek similar to, or the same as Manu's Condenser Control still?

Pretender

So wrote @crozdog, is a variation Nixon head at an angle to reduce the height of the column. Unfortunately, not all dyponują unlimited amount of space. Necessity is the mother of inventions .... :)

I enclose a sketch of the head Aabratek:

Smaug

That is Manu's design.

FullySilenced

not exactly manu's look at the Hook drawings you will see a version of this

don't think this one has a sliding condenser.. drain hole is to close to the column.. its a hybrid design...

sandsquirt

One of the advantages of the sieve plates over the bubble caps is the column clears at shut down. There is no remaining liquid stuck on the plates. Would there be a huge disadvantage to drilling a small hole in the plates and DC cups for drain back on a bubble cap set-up? I was tossing around the idea of a 1mm hole in the plate and on the DC cup. In the cup I would offset it away from the tube. Once the plate is loaded, would it have much effect to the operation?

RedDoorDistillery

@sandsquirt Also with sieve plates you can flush the entire column with water back down into the boiler by including a CIP (Clean in Place) water inlet at the top of your column. Turn on the hose and everything gets washed back down from the top in to the boiler and you can drain it away.

This is more of a benefit for columns that will not be torn down after every run.

As far as the 1mm hole on a bubble plate I believe it has been tried and caused weeping problems. But I will let someone else give you input here as I have not tried it myself.

Myles

Can I suggest that if you do include a weep hole to drain a plate that you do so via the downcommer.

Add the downcommer drain so that any potential vapour stream does not get to the plate above.

harley

@Myles ,

Maybe you are on something here!

If you looking relly carefully to Kothes end of the returnpipe( a have publish some foto of this before) than you can se that they have someting that look like a shoverhead.... but a relly dont nowe if the have any typ of return valve there or not ...

Cheers

Lloyd

@Myles that is brilliant. A very simple modification to drain a bubble plate and the downcomer with just 2 small holes.

sandsquirt

Myles, the drawing is very similar to my idea. The only addition that I wanted to add, was to shift the cup to the left. This would increase the distance between the downcommer pipe and the bubble stream.

Myles

What you suggest sandsquirt is exactly what I tried with the downcommers on my own valve plates. However, I am going to change to SD bubble caps and downommers for my own use.

One of the advantages with those, is that the liquid outlet is in the side of the downcommer tube - which makes it even more difficult for the bubbles to go up the inside of the downcommer.

sandsquirt

Myles if you add the cup drains, please post your results.

@RedDoorDistillery, when you back flush your column, do you have to disassemble and drain the downcommer cups?