Bubble Caps vs Sieve Plates Pros/Cons

RedDoorDistillery

There is a lot of debate about the differences between Bubble Plates and Sieve Plates. Thought I would start a new thread to discuss it.

My understanding is Bubble Caps require less power but will produce less thru put. You need more power to maintain the Liquid level on the Sieve Plate but depending on the hole pattern and density you can get more output efficiency about 20% more than Bubble Caps. I have lots of power available as my still has up to 44,000 watts of power.

There is also a lot of debate about flavor carry thru. Not sure what the real answer is here. Does anyone have any experience running the same wash thru both types of plates to offer a side by side comparison?

monty

My basic and limited understanding is that sieve plates require careful and accurate power input levels given hole size/open area in order to function properly. My sense is that bubble plates are more forgiving with respect to varying power levels.

punkin

I have read comments by those who have run both extensively on a hobby scale that say there is no difference in flavour carry through. Harry has posted some interesting charts in the past when this has been debated showing pro's and con's of the various systems (including valved trays) someone with a less depleted memory may be able to find them on Artisan Distiller and post them here?

emptyglass

Bubble caps seem to be able to wring a bit more out of a wash, but they seem to catch more tails. Seive plates seem a little better on the tails cut and they are faster. Taste is much the same from what I've seen. I havn't done a whole heap with bubble caps, so my experiments still need a little more practice to confirm categoricly, but I prefer the way seive plates seperate tails.

Lloyd

I've heard that bubble caps were safer than perf if running a wash that has grains or skins because the holes and slots are bigger and less chance of plugging. I don't see that as a problem because if the perf plate gets plugged then the pressure will blow through the downcomer (assuming the downcomer does not get plugged by grains or skins).
I question the need of using copper plates over stainless steel, where in the still (if at all) to use copper, the ideal height between plates, the downcomer size, I tend to question everything.

I don't know about anything larger than 4" because I have access to only 6kW but I've ran both SS perf 6 plate and copper bubble cap 6 plate and I cannot tell the difference in the finished product. And this is coming from someone that has sold many thousands of bubble caps and not a single perf plate (yet).

If you can hold a steady heat at the boiler then perf is fine but if you cannot then you will almost certainly get a plate dumping problem. That's one place where bubble caps excel. The fluid bed on the plate is mostly unaffected by an unsteady power input with caps.

Once a perf plate begins to dump it becomes a cascading effect - the cooler liquid draining into the boiler causes the boiler to cool even more and the vapor speed to reduce, causing more drainage and the cycle continues until all of the perf plates are dry. An insulated boiler and even moderate input power control would address this issue.

SD perf plates are in production and will be available soon so anyone that already has a bubble plate Dash can help test the difference. 8" perf plates are done and 4" are in production. A SS perf plate will be a much lower cost than a copper bubble plate so we should get plenty of feedback between the two different kinds of plates.

LunaBrille

I've been thinking about adding 2 more bubble tees to my rig (running a hybrid now 3 plates and a 18" packed section). I'm interested in trying the perf plates when they are available and I'm sure I have enough power to keep them from dumping... Would it be possible to keep perf plates flooded with only a 2" big baby for a reflux condenser?

Edit: it would probably make more sense just to upgrade to a 4" RC and make a dash out of it.

googe

Would the tails on the bubble cap be to.do with the plate being more of a constant bath rather than a bath on perfs that goes when rc is open and the bath disappears empty?. Did that make bloody sense lol.

Stinger

@emptyglass said: Bubble caps seem to be able to wring a bit more out of a wash, but they seem to catch more tails. Seive plates seem a little better on the tails cut and they are faster.

Are you saying that adding/replacing the bottom plate with a sieve plate would give a better/earlier indication of the start of tails - to guide our selection of hearts? I like the idea of an "early warning" that tails are imminent.

Or that an all-sieve setup improves separation and/or reduces smearing?

@Lloyd said:

.....I question the need of using copper plates over stainless steel, where in the still (if at all) to use copper.....

When I added copper to my airstill (many years ago - when I started this hobby) it definitely eliminated a sulfur problem. That's why I used to put copper in the boiler and in the vapour path of my all-SS pot still - even though it might have been an airstill-specific problem and not needed. Adding a wad of copper mesh above the defleg (in addition to copper off-cuts in the boiler) would solve a sulfur problem in an all-SS sieved dash IF the problem exits.

You've got me thinking about that too Lloyd.

emptyglass

Googe, I'm not really sure, but I feel its the one way nature of bubble caps. As I say, I havn't done enough with them to comment confidantly. Bubble caps seem better on low ABV washes, they seem to be able to catch everything and push it along. Maybe thats where the tails effect is, not sure.

Perf plates are more sensative to heat input changes than bubble caps, but they still have a window of tolerance. The guys on electric dont have an issue, and with a good reg, gas guys can run them no sweat. On the plus side, they run faster. On the down side, they can suffer the cascade effect Lloyd mentioned, but things have to be pretty stuffed up for this to happen. Its about balance with perf plates, I feel.

Stinger, I cant really say. It may give an indication of the onset of tails, but it also may suffer "blow drying" . With perf plates, you can just keep ramping up the heat untill you run out of condensing ability, but when you push that hard, the vapor speed can strip the fluid off the bottom plate. The bottom seive plate would have to be carefully matched to the bubble caps above it. If made with more active area than the caps above, it might just work. Not sure if that helps you or not.

googe

Thanks empty, I guess you'll find out with more testing. I'm sure crow wont mind lol. Ive always been curious about that to stinger, incorporating the different plates in one column. Ive never had perf plates but from what ive read some people have trouble with the bottom and top plates loading properly?. Wonder if bubble caps would help in these areas?.

emptyglass

Yeah Googe, I think the macs got his tounge. Sorry, cats got his tounge. I meant to leave the baggage at the door, sorry guys. I think most probs with seive plates not loading properly are due to too much or too little heat, and practice. Just like a simple pot still, they need to be run within their abilitys. Like any pot stiller knows, how you run it influences the outcome. Seive plates follow this trend. Bubble caps seem immune from a lot of these influences.

But like others say, theres not much diff if any in the end product. Both refine the spirit very well. Bubble caps are a bit more easily understood, and conform to established rules a bit better.

Stinger

Empty & Googe - I was thinking about adding two sieve plates - on top and at the bottom. I guess we'll have a better idea of how that would work as/when we know the output/heat input of a 4-plate sieve compared to the 4-plate bubble caps.

I do like the extra warning of the approach of tails that a sieve on the bottom might give. This is just something I might try in the future - when I have a lot more bubble-cap experience.

punkin

@Stinger said: Empty & Googe - I was thinking about adding two sieve plates - on top and at the bottom. I guess we'll have a better idea of how that would work as/when we know the output/heat input of a 4-plate sieve compared to the 4-plate bubble caps.

I do like the extra warning of the approach of tails that a sieve on the bottom might give. This is just something I might try in the future - when I have a lot more bubble-cap experience.

Cheap and easy enough to experiment with in the SD lineup. Can try all, some, none in any combination you like :)>-

bentstick

Added a bubble cap section(at top) to my 3 sieve plate column and did not find any difference in the way it ran, I did get 2% abv more out though,which I am sure it would do the same for a 4th sieve plate,how ever there was the issue of the product coming out of the downcomer on the bubble plate(SD brand) hit the sieve plate under it in a stream and upseting the surface tension in the area of contact,ie product falling out the bottom side of the sieve plate(not good),next time I run my column the bubble cap section will be under it! It will work if the downcomer drained on side of column or had a type of difuser to spread the downcomer discharge out! This is just my experince with the bubble cap section at the top!

I do how ever have a chart of my 3 plate seive plate column running,and my brothers 3 bubble cap column running I will dig them up and post them,fyi not much difference! \m/

emptyglass

That would make for a great video bentstick, a side by side run of yours and your brothers.

harley

Hello Eg, Nice to see you here where the air is clean and does not smell like yesterday ...

The development is moving forward with my sieve plates and 1.5 mm hole in 4mm pattern which I believe is the optimum for a wide destillationsband as possible and also get the maximum amount of product per hour. 10.2 to 10.3% hole% of the wet surface activation (is safe with 1,5mm hole), I have 3pc plates and the latest that I have learned - was taught by them experts I've talked to is that you can go up to 12 % hole surface if you count the way I do and have so small holes that 1.5mm so this is the next design in the sieve plates that I will make punch out and try what it suffers ...and this should correspond to about 3.8 mm square pattern on a 8 "with 28mm return pipe and the cup-liquid lock in the air ... but I have to punch them out first and then count on this ...there will be different results hole % if you solder "my plates" in a copper tube-rolled copperplate or pinches them between 2pc 8 "ferrules

Now that we are over 10% hole surface, so it wants to keep down the liquid height on the plate because otherwise it can become a problem ... 10-12mm is what I theoretically believe may be appropriate for hole surface above 10%, but this I have to try out practically before I know it and with lower fluid on the plate so may we bring more flavor too .. remember the taste is in the steam and much less in the reflux on the plate...and a relly hounting for max taste...

This is to develop equipment to the max is like a poison so unfortunately, the construction of my distillery suffered in my search for new and better solutions to the distillery has unfortunately been delayed, but the distillery is a hobby for me and I do not need live on it....

Now I have the opportunity to manufacture virtually everything in-house so prototypes can be manufactured and tested what it suffers as one can see on the theory and practice plays together, so now it will be even more "new" improved solutions

Cheers :ar!

googe

Thanks for the info empty, if I could only get the missus to drill the holes I'd try a few perf plates haha. Maybe one day when I'm not so lazy ill try it, or buy some when they get cheap.

Would be a good experient stinger!.

Ive always been curious if there is any difference in single caps like mine compared to multi caps like sd?.

emptyglass

Hey there Harley. I know you like seive plates, and have made yours accordingly, but whats your thoughts on bubble caps? Why did you choose perf plates over bubble caps? I'm a fan of sieve plates, but I'm interested in both seive's and bubble caps. They both have advantages and disadvantages. I currently have a bubble cap still on loan, and I've been testing it out a fair bit. I'm no expert and I have had to adjust the way I run it, but its been fun to compare results.

Googe, you need to give your missus a bunch of flowers, then she'll drill 'em for ya! Pretty easy really, buy flowers, turn drill on, recieve plates, cook own tea. Just buy her a 10 pack of drill bits. You can run bonus payments, one bunch of floweres for every drill she dosn't break. You'll be lucky to buy her one bunch in the end.

harley

Hi Eg The biggest reason why I have chosen sieve plates in my vodka column is that you do not achieve 96% with bubbelcaps in a number of 20pc and 1pc destillation ( 8% mash) but this is done with sieve plates and they are about 20% more efficient than bubbelcaps of product per hour relative to column diameter.

The type that transmits most flavor when you have 3pc which is what I will avail myself of the flavored products, I know in the current situation is not without honor to come back with.

I am also interested in many small bubelcaps as 1pc big bubbelcaps and I must just try fully both in speed flavor transfer.

An 8 "sieve plate with at least 10% open activ hole surface corresponds to about a 10" with bubbelcaps in theoretical product per hour ...

All my validations and tests will be performed on the same mash 1000liter by about 8% and a 60 gallon insulated boiler with a maximum of 22,000 watts and SD 8 "modular column to quickly and easily replace any tiles.

8 "is 4 times larger than 4" in the plate so all changes probably also be 4 times greater in an 8 "against what will be a 4" column ...

Cheers

Myles

Well Harley whilst I am not that interested in the sieve plates, I am definitely interested in the flavour comparison for 1 big cap as opposed to several smaller ones. Look forwards to reading your report.

harley

Hi miles,

I'm sad that it takes such a time for me to be finished with the distillery so I can put these plans to compare everything I intend to do. This with the distillery, is that I had named before a hobby and as soon as I distill a 1pc liter then the supervisory carousel started and then everything must be finished down to the smallest detail else can I get rid of all permits that I already have ...

The cost to produce 1pc 8 "bubble plate with the 1pc 5" giant bubbelcaps is not that much more expensive than 1pc sieve plates and the difference with 1pc 8 "and 18pc SD bubbelcaps which I intend to have my 8" bubble caps plate becomes large in money counting and 1pc giant bubble caps you can make yourself at home ... It just want to get all computations-calkulations with the flows "right" and that "outlet" for all the steam is not too hight and many, many small outlets, but it really sweeps along the bottom of the plate and not 1cm above the bottom as it does for many if you looks on movies on youtub ...

Cheers :ar!

punkin

@harley said: Hi Eg The biggest reason why I have chosen sieve plates in my vodka column is that you do not achieve 96% with bubbelcaps in a number of 20pc and 1pc destillation ( 8% mash) Cheers

Seen this said a lot of times and seen many pictures from many operators of 96% with as few as 5 or 6 plates.

Theory say's no, practice says yes. :-O

harley

You're probably right Punkin, but then they all run with both low power and much reflux and then it will probably not be any greater production speed!

My goal is to try to get 96% at maximum flow 15-20 liter per hour and this will be interesting to see how much I can squeeze out of a 8 "when I try to achieve 96% and maximum product per hour with a number of 20pc sieve plates.

If I am not wrong, then got hillbilly stills out about 96% and 3 gallons per hour from its 6 "sieve plates and with a number of 10pc plates .. it's on youtub.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVpcSRjep58

Cheers :ar!

FullySilenced

And now the TBB really knows who they are and which still they have.... :-@ Hillbilly tell alls...

harley

What is TBB... am from Sweden ;-)

Cheers :ar!

harley

Now I know what TBB is, then hillbilly stills left over info about 2pc columns they seend to me here in Sweden allso, lucky me to have permission for this in Sweden, it is illegal to OWN any type of distillation equipment, whether you use it or not ... Hope that SD never start to number columns, or anything else;-)

Cheers :ar!

RedDoorDistillery

@harley said My goal is to try to get 96% at maximum flow 15-20 liter per hour and this will be interesting to see how much I can squeeze out of a 8 "when I try to achieve 96% and maximum product per hour with a number of 20pc sieve plates.

harley-you and I are both targeting the same with the 8". But I hope to attain the 18-20 liter at 96% using only 11 sieve plates on the 8". I plan to strip to 50% and then run a 2nd time to 96%. vs going straight to 96% from 8% wash. I would have liked more plates but I am working with limited ceiling height issues.

harley

I relly looking forewards to se yours result with only one destilling from a 8% mash.... maybe you gets surprised... I think that... 6” = 152,40mm= The volume is 72 965.88 Cubic millimeters (mm3) giv 3 gallon in hour =3 gallon = 11,3562354 liter 8” = 200,00mm= the volume is 125 663.71 Cubic millimeters (mm3) 1,72 times bigger is a 8” than 6” In the flat-surface volume so 11,36 liter times 1,72 = 19,5 liter. This is the theoretical result if you go from a 6” to a 8” and with same hole size and hole %... and offcourse same mash and about 1,72 time more power... But what a nowe from HB 4" with sieve plates than they have only about 6,75% hole % of the active plate area, so this shall be wery intressing becouse you shall be finish before me ...

Cheers :ar!

bentstick

@emptyglass said: That would make for a great video bentstick, a side by side run of yours and your brothers.

We shall see what we can do in the future,he lives 280 miles/400 km away so it will take some planning to get our time synchronized!

Smaug

11.4 liters an hour sounds about right. Ask HillyBilly how much that 6er cost the customer...... :D

RedDoorDistillery

We will see soon enough. My Wheat based wash is only about 5.5%. I will give it a try and see what I can pull off. With only 11plates I think I will only get to 94% or so and it will have to be with lots of reflux so slower. Lloyd should have the last few parts ready in about 10 days so then he can Express ship it all to me from China. I will swap out from my current 4" rig and run it thru its paces.