Ground Control to Major Lloyd!!!!!

punkin

shit yeah. I've cleaned the shed, but the workbench is beyond me.

Aren't you spossed to be doing a controller for @HurdleCreek Stills new 8" Crystal Dragon?

olddog

I don't know Hurdle Creek, but the referral from Wombat distillery did not work out.

punkin

Aahhh, getting my stills mixed up. Been shipping a lot out lately.

Lloyd

Well bugger, got everything hooked up and the 5" dephlem prototype has a leak ~X(
It appears to have taken quite a hit during shipping to me. Disconnected everything, as everything seems to be connected to it, and getting ready to send it back.
This is not good because I need to run it before letting the copies be made and this could easily delay everything.

And yes, the fittings that I cobbled together because I don't have the right size pipe bushings on hand did leak so this gives plenty of time to sort that as well.

Eyeballing the new 6" dephlem to use in the meantime but that wouldn't test the 5" so having to put my high hopes on hold for the moment.

Weighing the option to get a local welder to repair the 5" dephlem. If they screw it up then the factory that made it won't accept it back and it does not teach them to package the condensers better. Still, it would save a week.

Lloyd

Humm, seems every-little-thing has worked out.
Got the local welder to do the quick weld fix and had to insist that he accept 20 yuan (about $3 USD). He didn't want to charge me because it was such a trivial matter for him but it was also a Chinese thing - meaning it was a favor for me and my job was to force him to accept it. You'd have to live it to understand it.

Went to the hardware market while the 5" dephlegmator was being repaired and got lots of cool little threaded pipe tees and bushings to match up with the sensors that @olddog sent to me. Also scored the electrical cable and plug end needed to wire up the 6Kw element. Got all this to the shop and man-o-man everything started to fall into place. So much so that by 4PM I wanted to run the still but Tan (the grand SWMBO) refused to let me run it until tomorrow.

No leaks (finally!), everything wired up, controller all ready, one 6Kw element uncontrolled, one 2.4Kw element uncontrolled and one 2.4Kw controlled element ready to go. 27L of local booze of 56% ABV to run (historically I lose about 30% or so of that to heads and tails). That's right, a potential of 10.8Kw of power to throw at my 5" still. Ain't never has such a luxury before. Couple all that with the new plate technology and the automation and tomorrow could be a golden day.

This could come together tomorrow guys! Feeling excited and @olddog has given me instructions on how to tune the controller. The PIDs need to go through the learning process once. Thinking I'll make a day of it by tuning the PIDs and returning everything to the boiler and then doing a real first run. May or may not do this and will decide tomorrow.

Plenty easy enough to get more 'low wines' for cheap here but when I buy 27L at a whack folks look in my shopping cart and you can see on their faces that they think I'll drink that crap and that I have a problem.

While I'm fiddling with the 5" column, the controller connections and upgrading the boiler to higher power elements, Tan and Wendy are busy coordinating the express and sea freight orders. This is getting good on more than one level.

Making notes as I go how to improve and adapt SD stuff to accommodate automated controller sensors. The parrot will be the hardest to do, I'm sure of that.

olddog

No need to return to the boiler after auto tune, do the auto tuning while the still is stacking in reflux.

cunnyfunt

One thing that I had issues with was the valve for the dephleg opening and closing and undershooting my temp by about 8C after auto tune had finished. Once auto tune has done its thing dont mess with your coolant flow rate at all. This was my problem. I found I had to use auto tune several times because I was messing with too many things.

Lloyd

Completed my first run with the 5" Crystal Dragon and OD controller.
Not everything went according to plan.
The 6Kw element cord got ugly hot so had to disconnect it, leaving only 2x 2400W elements. The boiler was full and no easy way to drain it so I just went with what I had. I needed more power!!

The autotune feature on the PID was a little confusing but managed to get it working by setting the LCK (lock) from 01 to 00. It then "learned" over the course of 2 cycles of turning the water on and off. I reset it several times and it always did the same.
It drastically undershot and overshot the target temps but as the run progressed it performed better and better without any autotuning, to the point that it learned how to keep the dephlegmator within a degree or so of the desired temperature.
I'm sure it's more 'me' that needs to learn more than the controller does!

The parrot sensor is not ideally located and I'll need to work on that. That will involve redesigning the parrot but it should help the PID to be responsive.

I can say that for the first time I could dial in whatever ABV that I chose and it held that ABV until it stopped producing. Set at 79.6C the product was 92+% (just what you'd expect with 4 plates) and 90% at 80.2C. Collection rate started at about 1L every 6 minutes or 10L per hour and slowly decreased while maintaining a rock steady %ABV.

I kept the middle 4 liters of clean hearts and will recycle the rest after setting up 8 or 9 five inch plates, upgrading the power cord on the 6Kw element and selecting a bigger product condenser to help conserve water.

All in all, not bad for the first run considering I couldn't give it the power input that it needed. The controller was a champ and will only get better when I get more comfortable driving it.

olddog

Congrats Lloyd, it will take a couple of runs to get used to the controller, as you have found, the first time you use it as you don't know what to expect. Yes the temps do under over shoot as it gets up to the temps for hearts, but should remain steady after that. BTW I just completed a UJSSM run with my system, I wanted to compare the difference with measuring coolant temps in the dephlegmator like Swede does with his systems apposed to measuring vapor temps as I do with my systems, I have fitted a thermowell into the dephlegmator so it was just a matter of changing the sensor location for the experiment. The result was no difference apart from using a different set of temperatures the outcome was the same. you should find that using a controller you really compress the heads and tails especially if you let the still reflux for a while prior to takeoff.

Lloyd

Thanks again @olddog I am very pleased.
And it just looks so good!
I really need to take more serious notes because I now have tons of accurate information including boiler vapor temp. And it's reassuring to know that if I turn my back to the still an alarm will sound if the product cooling water fails.

Lloyd

Ya know, sometimes a fellow can do nothing right.
Went to configure my 5" CD for 8 or 9 plates then realized I'd cut all the rods shorter for another project. Today begins the 2 day Tomb Sweeping Holiday so there is no getting new ones at the moment.
I was able to get 6 five inch plates with the rods that I have so went with that.
Because of the holiday there is no replacing the power cord on the 6Kw element either. So I will be running three 2400w elements. A potential 7200 watts does not push the 5" column to it's limit as I was hoping for. So yet again I won't be able to find the maximum power input.
Wait for it, as that's certainly not all. Went to grab a 3" product condenser from the shelf only to realize that Smaug had asked me to express all that I had in stock so there was zero of them to choose from.
But hey, I have a huge 4" prototype product condenser so it now graces my still. That ought to drastically lower my cooling water usage. It got dinged up in the shipping to me, cosmetic damage only, so I'll keep it as my personal condenser.
Most of my personal stilling gear is scratch-and-dent that I'd rather use than to sell or try to get a shipping insurance claim on.

Definitely going to run this configuration today. I figure it should produce 94+% at about 6 to 7 liters per hour with 6 plates. Will let you know how it goes.

Lloyd

It's increasingly obvious that production speed is opposed to quality.
I can get 7+L per hour with my 5 incher but it's tailsy. At 3 to 4 liters per hour and 94% with 6 plates it is sweethearts but production is relatively slow.
Trying to strike a balance and learn OD's controller at the same time.

Ran twice today, the first was fast and tailsy and the second was slow and sweet.

I need more time to play with this.

Grudaire

Lloyd, sorry for the off topic but my sociology background is begging to understand, why did you have to force the welder to take pay? Is this a battle of pride that must be won to ensure future amicable relations?

Lloyd

He and I are friends and the weld was a simple matter for him.
Still, to me, it was a $300+ much need prototype condenser.
It's a culture thing that is difficult to explain. And I not sure how to phrase it.
It's a delicate dance about "face". His and mine.
As a friend, he did not want to charge me. And he would have been just as happy if I had insisted him to take 5 RMB (about 83 cents) or 10 RMB but at 20 RMB (about $3 USD) it showed him that I appreciate and value him. There is a time to be generous.
It boiled down to 'name your own price' and it was a snap judgement call on my part but I think I did the right thing. And more than 20 RMB would have made me look foolish with money.

For example, 5 old friends gather for dinner at a restaurant. The custom is to order too much food because this is not just a meal, it is a feast, and everyone has a say in the dishes ordered. The meal is served family style in that the dishes are placed in big bowls or plates in the center of the table and everyone helps themselves to whatever they want.
After the meal and the drinks, smokes and lively conversation there is the polite battle where everyone claims the check or bill. Often this can be an aggressive process although the outcome is usually preordained. After everyone has had his chance to try to pay the bill the victor claims the debt and slaps a couple of hundred RMB on the check.
It's rare to see everyone tossing into the pot as seen in most other cultures.
Typically, the person that does the inviting is the one that pays. But it can escalate and become complicated. Fred and Wilma invite Barney and Betty and then Barney invites 2 other people and one of those brings a friend. Fred started it but to do some serious saving of face Barney had better be highly vocal about claiming the check. Still, the dime is on Fred.

Oppose this to a foreigner, or anyone for that matter, buying something from a street vendor where everything is negotiated. They say 12, you look disgusted and say 5. They counter with 8 and you 6. They go 7 and you pretend to walk away and they agree to 6. This is simply business, no more and no less. "Face" does not enter into this. This is not the time to be generous.

Getting back to my welder buddy... he and his wife live a simple life and I've never seen him when he wasn't working on something. Mostly he builds security bars for windows and doors but folks bring him a variety of wares to repair - like welding the cup back onto the handle on a ladle for a restaurant, for example.
He is neither poor nor rich. He is a friend of about three years so a few minutes of work to run a small bead of weld was a trivial matter for him. But there is the dance that must be danced.
This is all so very difficult to put into words. Like anything simple it can be complicated under the surface.

Naturally, Tan is much better at this than I will ever be. She instinctively knows how to negotiate the best prices from our factories but I often remind her to not cut them too deeply as we don't want quality or service to suffer.
She can't help herself, though, as it's part of her DNA. We needed to restock another 5000 bubble caps and she got the price trimmed by 0.5 RMB each - that translates into about $400USD savings. That's just business and lordy she is good at it.
A foreigner cannot possibly be expected to have the insight to do that without pissing someone off.

DistilliTraK

Actually, Lloyd, I sort of understand this.. I had the honor of managing two teams In Malaysia for a couple of years. The membership of those teams was/is predominately Chinese folks and damned hard workers too.

I was sent to Kuala Lumpur twice a year for about 10 days and I saw a lot of the restaurant/street vendor scenarios you described... And heaven forbid if I demanded to pay - that was just wrong to those guys even thou corporate was more than willing since it was a "team" thing.

I learned really fast I had no clue what so ever and to STFU and just be a guest :)

It is as you say, there are times for generosity, and times for hard bargaining/barter. In all, I found it refreshing and very educational. When abroad I try to adapt to local customs/food/going's on, it's so enlightening and different than home. So, I'd often end up a roadside shanty restaurants, or out in villages and such. Such rich cultures and deep character of the folks.

Lloyd

I just couldn't be happier with my @olddog control panel.

Had a thought and wanted to run it past you guys...

The only absolutely necessary Dash PID control for automation is on the dephlegmator. 1 sensor, 1 PID and one electric valve with a few assorted electrical trinkets to glue it all together.
The SD DIY element controller has been insanely popular recently and a PID DIY dephlem controller could be patterned the same basic way.

I could really see putting the parts together for a simple DIY dephlegmator-only controller supplied with a dephlegmator that was made to mate with the supplied sensor or vend the DIY fitting for those that can retrofit their existing condenser.
And of course the same could be done with the product condenser.
Thoughts?

olddog

You would also need an SSR to fire the valve, but they are not that expensive, with a reflux only kit you could either heat with a SD boiler kit or propane.

Lloyd

Yes, that's all part of the "glue" :D

A little excited about this because it's a first step that I can make with some hand holding from olddog and others that would chime in.

Replicating the olddog controller that he built for me is a bit intimidating to say the least. But breaking it down into a single module is, as you may know, right up my alley.

Don't get me wrong, I'm immensely happy with my olddog controller. It has all the bells and whistles, literally, that I ordered. It is more than I hoped for and it is a bargain for what I got.

Now to use that knowledge to supply simple and easy to construct DIY kits to bring the cost from about a grand or so (twice to five times more than that if not working with olddog) to a couple of hundred bucks or less for a simple but effective DIY automation kit.
There is no doubt in my modular mind that we can do this.

It won't be quick but it will happen. We are going to bring intelligent still automation to StillDragon customers for a fraction of the price that has kept so many from enjoying the full potential of their Dashes because the entry price and expertise needed was beyond the average person's reach. The goal is if you can assemble a SD DIY element controller then you can also assemble a SD DIY Dephlegmator automation kit.

**I can tell you **it is a joy to dial in the controller temperature setting and let it take over. No more fiddling with valves during the run and you can accurately dial in the fores, then the heads and then the hearts. Controlling the dephlegmator cooling water flow is the key and it is simply not possible for a human to do it to perfection, it needs a low cost computer (PID) to monitor it hundreds of times per minute.

OF COURSE, you DO need to run the still (you should never leave it unattended) but some simple automation nails everything down and I suspect, over time, the water savings alone will more than pay for the automation hardware.

Fearing I'm hyping this because of my excitement but a DIY kit is, as said, many months away.

DistilliTraK

That's great !! - Here's a unknown tip - We system geekaloids write automation wherever we can because machines never sleep, or have to pee like humans, and they relate to time in nanoseconds whereas humans cannot comprehend faster than a microsecond (or so says the scientists) and they'll catch it every time and buttock arsed fast too. Even if it's something everyone's watching for, I still write alerts and stops (hey, I'm bwoken-take action!) or invoke actions to mitigate the situation. I work in an environ where even one second of down time in a system during prime time could buy 100 dash 2's. They are fruckin-A serious about failover and automation. Thankfully, the Big Iron seldom fails.

I look forward to the automated setup!!

Mickiboi

@olddog said: You would also need an SSR to fire the valve, but they are not that expensive, with a reflux only kit you could either heat with a SD boiler kit or propane.

Is this the water flow control valve through the condenser you are talking about olddog?

Lloyd

Taking the 5" dephlegmator to my welder friend today to have a hole drilled and a coupler welded on so the sensor can be located INSIDE the condenser instead of in the coolant outflow fitting. Planning to position it about 1/3 down from the top.
This should improve the response time.
Thanks for the suggestion @olddog.

olddog

The automated system comprises of a sensor in either the dephlegmater or vapor path which is connected to a PID (temperature) controller which in turn is connected to a valve in the inlet of the dephlegmater to control the coolant flow. The low voltage output signal from the PID to tell the valve when to open or close can be connected via a SSR to switch the higher voltage valve. You can also use the relay output from the PID to achieve the same but a transformer is then required to activate the valve. Getting a PID with SSR output is the simplest method which can then be connected to the valve via a SSR.

Mickiboi

@olddog said: The automated system comprises of a sensor in either the dephlegmater or vapor path which is connected to a PID (temperature) controller which in turn is connected to a valve in the inlet of the dephlegmater to control the coolant flow. The low voltage output signal from the PID to tell the valve when to open or close can be connected via a SSR to switch the higher voltage valve. You can also use the relay output from the PID to achieve the same but a transformer is then required to activate the valve. Getting a PID with SSR output is the simplest method which can then be connected to the valve via a SSR.

I thought that was what you were talking about. I have done this before for a couple of friends. I used a Sestos D1S-CR-24 4-20mA output for the PID and Belimo 4-20mA (2-10VDC) 2 or 3 way valves depending on if they were recycling the water or using it straight from the tap. Works perfectly.

You can size the CV of the valve here (PDF).

Also this is all 24VAC control so provided a pre wired transformer is supplied there is no 240VAC to contend with which makes this way ideal for DIY people who aren't that confident with their electrocution avoidance skills. Lloyd may be able to source a cheaper control valve in China.

Sestos Digital PID AC/DC 12-24V Temperature Control Controller Current And Relay Output D1S-CR-24 + K sensor

Lloyd

@Mickiboi said: ...ideal for DIY people who aren't that confident with their electrocution avoidance skills...

You nailed it! A DIY kit has got to be simple and it's got to be foolish proof.
Certainly not speaking of any member here except myself as so many are tons more clever about the viper that lurks inside insulated copper wires.

Did get the 5" dephlegmator fitted with a coupling today so it can accept the sensor and while at it also got a parrot fitted with one too.
Will post pictures when its all setup again tomorrow.

punkin

I reckon this is a fantastic idea and will be very popular with brewers. It has so many uses. In a mash tun hooked up to the StillDragon RIMS kit. In a single vessle brewery hooked up to the gas or element. If you hooked it up to an element rather than a valve you have an instant sous vide kit.

Maybe sell the controller as stage 1 and the valve kit as stage 2. Do you need a special valve oriented PID or is that bit standard for a number of processes?

I'd really like to make a sous vide with my over the side element controlled by a smart controller. It'd go in any pot i chose from a saucepan to a keggle.

CothermanDistilling

a few thoughts..

• I welded my fitting to the 3/8" threaded fitting on the dephleg water outlet. the energy absorbed by the water is most accurately measured here, if water absorbs more heat in the top third, you are not completely measuring the energy transfer, but extrapolating the energy in the bottom two-thirds...
• I believe you could also monitor the vapor temp as well as the dephleg water temp, after all, that is what we are really trying to control, correct? (I think, but am not completely convinced, that vapor temp could give better control)

• mechanical versions of what you are doing are very proven.... the danfoss thermostatic valve I also use for cooling could be used... however the digital one has the extremely useful feature of being able to be programmed for steps...

• automation steps example: have it heat and stabilize at just below vapor temp of ethanol to compress heads, then jump to hearts after a certain time has elapsed, then at maybe a certain vapor temp below 1st plate, jump to tails...

Mickiboi

Punkin "Do you need a special valve oriented PID or is that bit standard for a number of processes?"

The controller is a special one. It outputs a constant signal between 4-20mA low voltage DC, this signal is sent to the controller on the valve which positions itself linearly with respect to the control input signal ie 4mA = closed 8mA = 25%open 12mA = 50%open 16mA = 75%open and 20mA = 100%open. The one olddog is talking about is the standard SSR or relay output as used with the heating element, used in cooling mode which pulses a valve open and closed to allow cooling water to flow in exactly the same way as it pulses the element on and off. The 4-20mA version is more expensive but more accurate as it allows a continuous flow of water through the condenser where the SSR/Relay type allows small surges of water through the condenser which gives small fluctuations (rises and falls) in temperature.

The pulsed type could be a 12/24V DC/AC SSR/Relay version and a 12/24V DC/AC solenoid valve. This would fit with the safety theme still. Either way whatever you do really needs to be low voltage with a pre-wired transformer or power supply. It all depends on how accurate you want it and what price point you are aiming at.

olddog

Incorrect there Mickiboi,the controller I use can use either current output 4-20ma or voltage output 0-5v or relay output 250vac 3a or pulse output 0-12v for ssr. You might need to enlarge it to read but find the attached specs.

olddog

Punkin and Cotherman Distilling, PIDs are available to do that job, they are the ones used in home brewing and they have ramp and soak functions, and unfortunately are a bit more expensive which would raise the price of a basic kit. They can be programed up to 32 steps to raise/lower and hold at the desired temperature, they need more programing input from the user to achieve this, from a distilling point of view, you would need to produce an exact same wash every time, as forshots/heads/hearts could vary with different wash alcohol content.

punkin

Yes mate, i was just talking a bout a set point temperature one. As you'd need for a bain marie, sous vide or mash tun if you weren't going for stepped mash. A simple cheap DIY kit that didn't need to be programmed any differently than an STC 1000.

(and yes i know you could use an STC 1000 to do it)