The Red Door Distillery and the tale of the 8" Crystal Dragon.....

RedDoorDistillery

I have had a few questions about my false bottom Mash/Lauter Tun. I use it to mash in 330 gallons of water and 450lbs of ground wheat. It is a 550gallon tank when all the water and grain is in there the level come up just to the top of the mixing blades. Here is a video of that as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI8rOGbcOmo

harley

@ReedDoorDistillery

Strange, but maybe not!

The better your returns works the lower level, or rather the more precise level you have at ALL the plates and it seems that the lower level require significantly less power to produce the same results ...

I would like you to also run a "normal" distillation with your 5-7% mash before we draw any conclusions.

But there after I would recommended to you lower your fluid level to max = as low trough depth on each plate as possible type 5-6mm that the nut is thick-high.

Does it not satisfactory then , then you must change returnpipe to bigger....

Then return tubes is too small! What is your internal dimensions today! They may need to be changed to the bigger one typ about 25-30mm inside i think....

Because you should not have any problems that it is build up of pressure when you have about 10% 1.5 mm hole of the column volume ... no way...

Does all the plate looking good all time and no weeping, foam and bubbles, even whith this lower power?

Thanks again for sharing, we are on they way and soon we are there ;-)

Cheers

harley

@RedDoorDistillery said: I have had a few questions about my false bottom Mash/Lauter Tun. I use it to mash in 330 gallons of water and 450lbs of ground wheat. It is a 550gallon tank when all the water and grain is in there the level come up just to the top of the mixing blades. Here is a video of that as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI8rOGbcOmo

Nice work, and it,s big relly BIG ;-) but it must take time to get out all draw/ used corn from that little hole in the front or how is you doing that!

i havent done my mash tun yet, but a now how it shall be and my false bottom shall have oblong holes type 1 mm wide and 20-30 mm long as they are not put back so easily and you get better flow.

My false bottom will consist of 2 halves and then shall they sit together with a long piano hinge in the middle so I can lift / tilt up each half and flush it from behind then learn it stuck in the holes going into the bottom and out with drains .. when I do this so I hope I do not need to lift out of them every time for cleaning, but this can be done on location in the vessel, it is my goal ...

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

@harley That was what I was thinking as well. Better flow down the DC more consistent depth requiring less power. I agree that I need to do a Strip Run with it in this config before I move on to any other changes. That will happen this next Sunday.

After that it is my plan to lower the pipes to be level with the nut about 6mm vs the 11.41mm they are at right now. And see what happens.

For the mash tun I use a blade rake to pull all the spent grain out of the front man hole into bins. It take 5 bins to hold the spent grain and it takes about 25mins to rake all the grain out. I do get quite a bit of fine grain particles that make it thru the false bottom so I have to pull the plates out and clean under them after each mash.

All together it take me about 1hr to rake out the grain and then fully clean out the mash tun each time.

Law_Of_Ohms

@RedDoorDistillery

I'd like to know more about your mashing -> sparging -> cooling -> fermenting... plz?

RedDoorDistillery

What do you want to know?

applepie

Dang it @RedDoorDistillery, 450 lb of wheat I hope you like wheat. Id like to hear more about the wheat receipt and what you get out of it. Vodka or other

bentstick

Will make a good vodka! :-c

RedDoorDistillery

I posted my Wheat Vodka recipe and process a few months ago here. I have since made a few small changes to my process due to equipment changes but it will give you the idea.

Lloyd

@RedDoorDistillery, I know you have posted this before but...
What can a SD customer expect for production on an 8" Crystal Dragon (perf plates) and what is the suggested input power during production?
I know there are always many variables - like fine tuning the downcomers and the ABV of the boiler charge - so not looking for exact but rather guidance.

Some reports about 6" production are starting to trickle in but they seem to be running on either gas or steam so exact power inputs in kW's are not easily extrapolated.

The 4" is pretty well known to all now and someday the 5" will hopefully join the herd.

A year from now could see us in the 12 and even 20" columns. But for now 8" is tops.

As always, thank you so much for all of your input and sharing.

RedDoorDistillery

So far....

18L HR doing a Strip Run to 170Proof from 10% Wash. Using about 32,000 Watts. 13L HR doing a Spirits Run to 191Proof from 40% Charge. Using about 16,000 Watts.

These are the sweet spots I have found so far but as I continue to make adjustments to the DC these figures may change.

harley

I personally think that you can get the same volume at 40% mash at 10% mash if you increase the size / diameter of your return pipe by about 25-50%.

Alcohol has a different density than water and the stronger mash the greater returns, it seems that one needs,

I also believe that if you halve the liquid level on the plates, it takes much less power to achieve the same result, or what do you think RDD!

I really look forward to your future alterations and what they will result in

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

@harley I agree. I plan to run a Strip run from 10% this weekend to compare what the new cut off DC do compared to before. Next Step would be to lower the plate depth to the minimum and try again.

Lloyd

Excellent data @RedDoorDistillery, thank you.

harley

@ReedDoorDistilley

How has it gone for you this weekend, I am interested in your results and experience, personally I do not believe that it has become such a big difference to before for you has only increased the flow in the bottom of these small return pipe.

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

Struggled with the strip run this weekend from 11% wash. Could not get the column to stabilize. It kept wanting to Flood. Finally I was able to get things to settle down with 4 elements and almost no reflux. The column stabilized at 150P output vs 175P before the change but the output was very slow. If I tired to add even a small amount to increase more reflux and increase the proof the top plates would start foaming and completely flooding the plate.

It was acting like it did not have enough Vapor Speed to handle any thicker of a liquid level that would be caused by adding even the smallest amount of increased reflux.

I reduced the reflux back to the stable point. Then decided to try more vapor speed by adding another element for total of 5. Output picked up and I was then able to increase the reflux some bringing the Proof up to 155P but beyond that the top plate would foam and flood again.

I increased the Vapor Speed again by adding the 6th element. Output increased again and I was able to add a little bit more reflux getting me to 160P. Output at this point was around 20L/hr. @160. If I tried to increase reflux more it flooded.

As the boiler started running out of ethanol 4% and below the top plate temp would start to increase and proof would start to slip. I was able to slowly add more and more reflux to keep the top plate temp output Proof stable without the plate flooding. But output speed slowly dropped off as I added more reflux.

Seems to me the Column wanted to output at 160P no matter what. As long as I did not try to increase reflux to go above 160P that I was fine and I could keep adding reflux to keep it at 160P.

Also I did verify that I need a reflux shield over my Temp Probe at the top of the column. When I was running very little reflux (almost none) the Temp Sensor was dead on accurate to what the proof was coming out of the parrot as there was not much reflux dripping back onto the sensor. But as I increased the reflux later in the run the Temp Sensor was reading lower than the output proof dictated it should be. When I looked up at the probe I could see the massive amount of colder reflux liquid that was raining down on the probe when before with very little reflux it was only getting dripped on occasionally.

Now that I think I understand what the column wants I am going to try and replicate this again next weekend with another strip run using the above parameters from the start. See if I can get it running and stabilized quickly this time and keep it that way thru the entire run.

I think this is what happened. By increasing the downward flow of the DC I decreased the liquid depth on the plates. This caused the proof of a strip run to drop from 175p down to 160P as the vapor is going thru less liquid on each plate. But the column still needs enough vapor speed to keep the plates working right.

RedDoorDistillery

So decided not to run this still this weekend and work on a few other things. I added an 8" port to the top of the boiler so that I can leave the column up and still be able to wash out the inside of the boiler. As well as fill it. Prior to today I have had to build the column and take it down after each run so I could wash out and refill it via the main drum port.

Also installed my 6 stage water filtration system for my proofing water. This is a Reverse Osmosis system with De-ionization. Water passes thru a spun fiber filter, then 2 carbon filters, then 2 Reverse Osmosis membranes, and then finally thru a DI filter bed.

The tall 4" stainless tub is my Carbon Filter for the ethanol.

I also installed my Dehplag Water Control and Temp Display panel. But I forgot to take a picture of it.

After many discussions and calculations I have come to the conclusion that I believe the DC pipes in the Crystal Dragon are undersized and not allowing the reflux to cascade down properly. I am working on a redesign that will take the DC pipes from 17.5mm to 29.26mm. The equivalent flow capability of around 6 of the Copper Bubble Cap style DCs. The current DC is right now the equivalent of only 2 of the Copper DCs and we know that an 8" bubble cap needs at least 3 to handle the reflux of a bubble plate column. The assumption is that with perf plates we need even more reflux capability due to the increased vapor speed requirement.

I hope that this solves the problem and if it does will probably complete the R&D testing on the 8" Perf Plate Crystal Dragon. Working out all the bugs so that it is ready to go into full production and availability from SD.

Mtnmann

Any idea when SDNA might have these 8 inchers available?

RedDoorDistillery

@Mtnmann I believe they 8" Crystal is available but only for the copper bubble plates as the R&D on the Perf Plates is still a work in progress. @Smaug you want to chime in here....

Mtnmann

Thanks RDD. Am I correct in understanding that the benefit to the perf plates over bubble is mainly in the ability to completely rinse the column in place?

RedDoorDistillery

@mtnmann Yes. That and theoretically more output per hr. The bubble cap plates have about 6% open surface area while the Perf Plates are 10% open. In theory the should allow for about 40% more output per hr. Still yet to be proven just yet.

RedDoorDistillery

Ok. The new DCs are done and in place. Column is all setup and ready to run tomorrow. The new design increases the size of the DC from 17.5mm to 29.26mm. From 240sq(mm) to 672sq(mm) 280% of the original size. This is also about 200% of the flow capability of the 3 Copper DCs that are known to work on the 8" Copper Bubble cap plate.

My new design is a slip sleeve welded to the bottom of the plate with 2 set screws to hold the pipe in place. And the cup is now welded to the bottom of the tube vs. being mounted to the plate.

This will allow me to set the DC from flat level with the plate up to 31mm high.

Law_Of_Ohms

why didnt i think of that! :)

punkin

I've gotta say i like that design much better than the DC's i have in stock and have not listed for this reason. I love that we can do product development live like this.

Lloyd

@punkin said: ... I love that we can do product development live like this.

Me too, @RedDoorDistillery has been keen to keep us up to date with what works, what does not and how to fix it. Thanks!

Smaug

@RedDoorDistillery said: Mtnmann I believe they 8" Crystal is available but only for the copper bubble plates as the R&D on the Perf Plates is still a work in progress. Smaug you want to chime in here....

Everything is in stock for a bubble cap version of the 8" Crystal Dragon.

Law_Of_Ohms

has anyone run a 8in crystal dragon bubble cap to give actual data?

punkin

There's a 15 plate setup here in Australia, but i have not got any feedback.

Mtnmann

It would be great to have the comparison. We are seriously considering one of these crystal 8 inchers for our micro distillery. @Smaug I assume the bubble cap plate and perf plates are interchangeable?

FullySilenced

yep