The Red Door Distillery and the tale of the 8" Crystal Dragon.....

jonno

I know its probably been said somewhere but is there any particular reason why your running perf plates? Funnily i was watching @Lloyd crystal video this morning and caps were able to stack alot easier.

RedDoorDistillery

So this is a small commercial system. So the intent is to be able to clean the column in place and not dissassemble it after the run. With perf plates you can wash it all down from the top and leave the still together. All the liquid runs off the plates back into the still. With Bubble Caps you would maintain liquid on the plates unless you took it apart each time.

Output is also higher. With an 8" bubble you can expect around 16L an hour. With perf I am pulling around 20-22L an hour.

Also perf plate is cheaper due to the stainless vs copper. And not needing all the copper bubble caps. For an 8" you would need 16 Bubble Caps and 3DC. x 11 plates. $136 worth of caps and DC for each plate and 11 plates $1826 vs Perf you need 11 plates 11 DC 11 Cups all in Stainless around $600-$800 or so.

bentstick

:)>- very nice! Thanks for the vids and write up!

harley

Hi @RedDoorDistillery, how is it going for you? Have you take away one plate so you have 10pc now? And I am also interested if you have tested to lower the liquid level on the plates to get less pressure, and maybe a lower liquid level needs less power to give the same product speed per hour.... I don't really know but I am interested to see if it is like this, as I think that it can be so... Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

Going to run again next weekend with only 10 plates to check the power difference requirement. Next step will be to lower the liquid plate depth. With the Crystal setup it is very time consuming to fully disassemble everything to make a change like plate depth.

harley

When you lower the liquid level in the sieve plates, try to lower it as much as possible so you are flat with the nut, which should be around 5-6mm, it looks like. Also check that the column really is vertical to 100% .... I'm really looking forward to the outcome of this shift both in power demand as% change and liters per hour ...

Thank you for sharing your experience about this 8 "10% in 1,5mm sieve plates, I look forward to your" endnotes "

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

Reconfigured the column tonight to remove 1 plate. The column is now only 10 plates. Interesting finding. Now that I have run several runs thru the column the gaskets for the crystal dragon were very difficult to take apart. Between the pressure of the exterior rods and the heat of running the column the gaskets had basically glued themselves to the glass. I had to carefully work the gasket free all the way around the glass section before I could get the seal to release the glass.

Good thing is that I am pretty sure I never have to worry about developing a leak. Just made it difficult to reconfigure the column.

Will run the new config this weekend and see how much of a power requirement difference taking 1 plate out makes.

punkin

May need some food grade lubricant on assembly. Thanks for the information.

RedDoorDistillery

@harley I would like some input from you on this one.... Any one else that has input as well.

I think I have a problem with the DCs not flowing. Causing my plates to maintain a much higher fluid depth then then are supposed to thus requiring more power. Each cup is 24mm deep inside. With the DC set 12mm above the plate I have determined that I only have 2.5mm between the bottom of the DC pipe and the bottom of the inside of the cup.

I believe this is causing major restriction in the volume of reflux that is being allowed to flow back down the column. Causing the plates to maintain a much deeper liquid depth.

When I compare this to the SD Copper DC the liquid depth is only 16mm and the top of the wholes are only about 6mm below the liquid level with ample hole around the tube to allow for flow.

With the Stainless DC and Cup I am only 2.5mm off the bottom of the plate but I am under 20mm of liquid.

Thinking about cutting 10mm off the DC pipes. So the pipe is now 12mm off the bottom of the cup and 10mm below the top of the liquid.

One thing I found interesting this weekend. By chance I did a partial shutdown. And dropped to just 1x 5500w element with full reflux and walked away for a bit. I came back and all 10 plates were running right at the liquid depth of the DC and stabilized.. Had just a little weeping from just the bottom 2 plates. And this was with only 1 element.

I really thing the DC is choking on the reflux rate...

harley

Hello, I'm with you completely that you should have about 8 - 10mm between the pipe and the bottom of the coup for maximum flow in the return pipe with a diameter of 20mm and 10mm difference in the vapor lock will be at least 20mm for it is the same "distance" inside the returnpipe as on the outside of the tube with liquid in the cup ...

but I do not like this solution , as you have chosen with vapor lock fixed to the plate underneath it is then that you can get these problems without having to think about it, unfortunately, and the sealing can get little lower so the plate get little closer to next plate below and then you maybe have this problem again with to little distans in the waporlock end/ end of pipe, ore to much distans as well ....

the optimum is to have vapor lock welded to the pipe and into the air then you Always have the same opportunities between the pipe and the bottom of the vapor lock regardless trough depth / licuid deep on the plate ...

I have weld all returncup to the returnpipe and have them all in the air, yes thats me... and put a treaded bult in the little hole that is left on the plate were the returncup was before.... then you have NO future problem with this... 8-10mm, no more ore no less is what a " personally" have put in different betven end of pipe and botton of vaporcup..

I just think that the optimal liquid height / trough depth of 10 - 11pc sieve plates are about 10mm but it would be interesting to see what 5 -6mm trough depth would generate , personally , I think you lost a little too much % with this low trough depth as 5-6mm is so 10mm is probably the trough depth / licuideep as you learn to end up with after test all heights a think, but a relly dont nowe that.. ...

That the column still worked with just 1pc 5500watts element is interesting, now we also have into account that you probably have had more impact/power before so we do not know everything, but I'm still very surprised that you need such an extremely high power to get this column to function as it is supposed ... in my eyes, you use about 5-8 000watt more than all calculations resulting in but you can also have large heat losses in your boiler ..

I think you will get a completely different effect numbers/ power need and hopefully a cleaner as stronger spirits when you changed both the trough depth to about 10mm and also has 8-10mm between vapor lock and the end of pipe so there is NO . restrictors there...

Test on, you make a relly good work, we are all greatfully for all of yours info that you share.

Cheers

Lloyd

Yes, @harley, like @RedDoorDistillery, you are a great contributor.
Unafraid to call into question any and all aspects of SD products only makes us stronger and helps us to forge better products and methods. We welcome this!
We strive to make the very best so all insights are welcomed.

@RedDoorDistillery is considering cutting about 10mm off the SS downcomer tube for his perf 8" to have less tube depth in the cup and also to have less fluid depth on the 8" perf plate. Its a bold move but after his many runs he has amassed enough run data to support such a move. I am also looking forward to his new data should he decide to do this.

RedDoorDistillery

This is part of the reason I bought a lot of spares. I have another full set to shorten and still have my original full set of DCs alone. If this does not work or creates a problem I can go back to the longer ones.

So I dropped the DC pipes off to my machinist tonight. He is going to put them in the lathe and cut 9mm off the pipes. This will give me 15mm below the DC to the bottom of the Cup. And the bottom of the DC will still be under about 9mm of liquid in the cup.

harley

Something that I would think would be interesting would be if you had a pressure gauge so you could read the pressure in your boiler at your last trough depth about 16mm ( i think that it was) and with a power of about 27 to 28.000 watts that you needed to get 11pc Plates to function optimally and with no foam on them

and compare this pressure needed to get the same number of plates but with only 50% as high trough depth = about 8mm to function optimally and with no foam on them ... and also see how the power requirement decreases as the flow / product per hour and also how this affects the strength ...

Trough depth and its impact on everything else ...

Trough depth is probably more important than what we think and know about when you have many,,many plates!

There are not many people who have practical experience with columns over 6-10pc plates in 8” and bigger that is maximally developed for vodka with maximum flow.

It is exactly this that is very interesting to check in really with practice.

Thanks Rdd for sharing.

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

@harley I do have a pressure gauge on the boiler now. It is a 0-30psi gauge. I have been watching it closely thru all my runs it never moves off 0. Even when I was hammering the still with 30,000 watts on a strip run it did not budge so less than 1 psi. (Unless the gauge is broken.... I need to test it to make sure)

harley

The scale you have on it is to big/ heavy a think if you dont se any pressure.... ore it,s maybe broken. Im note good at the psi scale, so a dont nowe what pressure that is compare to bar/kg.

I will try to find a pressure gauge with a maximum of 1 bar/kg as the highest value, then everything becomes much more sensitive and pressure learns probably be between 0.1 to max 0.4 bar/kg somewhere in your case and also in my case later I think.

I expect to have a 2 "/ 50mm bursting disc which exploded at a maximum of 0.5 bar/kg for my safety pipe that has to go out through the outer wall.

RedDoorDistillery

1 bar =14.5037738 pounds per square inch so .5 bar would burst disc would be about 7.5psi. .1bar = 1.45psi and .4bar = 5.80psi

Need to check my gauge but if it is correct I am not even getting to .1bar.

punkin

Have you priced the bursting discs yet?

I have.

This is top feedback RDD we really appreciatte it. That's why the DC's were made adjustable, but as you say, you can't lift the overflow gap without lifting the plate depth. It'll be an easy fix to cut a couple of MM off and hopefully your experiment will have the DC's perfect.

harley

Hey, Punkin,

I actually have not had time to check this with the bursting disc and prices yet!

Have you done it, it would be interesting to know what they cost, and even a bit more data on them.

Cheers

punkin

Over $500au each if i buy in lots of twenty. The rest of the info is on my desktop.

harley

That was expensive, punkin,

A shall check this later becouse it is a good and "approved/ controlled" solution and a think that the goverment here inside the EU demand anyting like this ore anything ellse that are "approved/ controlled" in commersial solution/plants. This with " approved/controlled" saftey valve is a big problem and it seems to be expensive allso.

If someone ellse have any cheaper solution that is "approved/controlled" so please let me nowe.

Cheers

harley

@RedDoorDistillery

What have you for type of safety relief valves and are your valves inspected and approved by the authorities there you have your distillery!

I have read on ADI that this seems to be something that is required in the United States, but it may be different laws and rules in the different states.

Here inside EU/ Sweden a must have approved/ inspected sefety relif valves, but am note there yet so whe shall se what a end up with later.

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

Right now I just have a gauge and a manual dump valve. Still figuring out a true safety relief valve. So far no one has asked or wanted to inspect my boiler but I am sure they will at some point. I had looked at Burst Discs as well but I have not settled in on a solution yet.

CothermanDistilling

you could have a water column to measure and provide blowoff to the outside... you could have a small water column connected to each plate... would be extremely accurate...

RedDoorDistillery

Got the shortened DCs last night. Today I fully tore down the column and replaced the DCs with the new shorter one. I had them cut off 9.43mm. This takes the gap between the bottom of the DC and the Cup from 5mm to 14.5mm and still keeps the bottom of the DC under about 10mm of fluid in the Cup to prevent vapor.

Before
Gap from DC to Cup Bottom = 5mm
Bottom of DC below fluid level of cup = 19mm

After
Gap from DC to Cup Bottom = 14.5mm
Bottom of DC below fluid level of cup = 9mm

I left the plate depth setting the same at 11.41mm as it was before. Hopefully this will allow a better flow rate down the DC and keep the plates from flooding requiring less power.

harley

@RedDoorDistillery If a dont remeber it wrong, you have about 16mm hight licuidlevel/ returnpipe up on the plate before, from start.

so i hope that you are lower the return pipe more that only 3,5-4mm when it is so much work for you to take this glascolumn apart...

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

@harley When I first setup the column I was shooting for 12.4mm (.5") of liquid height on the plate. I checked the plates as I took them apart and I actually had them at 11.4mm (.44"). So when I put it back together I used the 11.4mm as the set point. I did not want to change 2 variables at the same time as I want to understand and document the change with just making the DC's shorter in the cup.

Took about 2 hours to fully tear down all 10 plates, replace the DCs, and put it all back together.

The gaskets were sticking a bit but it was not that difficult to get them to pull apart so I opted not to use any gasket lube when I put it all back together.

I am going to run it this weekend with a charge of 200 gallons @ 43% and compare how it runs vs. how it worked last weekend with a similar charge of 200 gall of 41%.

awesome

As a thought i have used water gauges often for the low pressures that we are looking at i bar = 33 feet of water giving you 14.7 psi so 1 foot of of gauge glass plastic tube would give you 2.2lbs very accurate simple to use and if needed could be used as a relief system if your water tube was over pressurized it would push out the water and vent

harley

@RedDoorDistillery

How is it going, have you destilling yet! and was it better with this changin that you have done in the waporcaps?

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

@harley Yes I did run it... Weird results. I could noticeably see that the DCs were flowing better. The bottom cup I would estimate was dumping 70+% more volume back into the boiler.

As far as power and usage it was not want I expected. Really the reverse.

Last week with a 40% High Wine charge I needed 4 elements and a bit of cooling flow to stabilize and run azeotrope. @ 13L Hr.

This week after only changing the DC depth in the cup. 3 elements with a very slow cooling water flow stabilized the plates and gave me azeotrope at the same 13L hr.

If I tried to run any more power the plates slowly got deeper and deeper till it flooded. I tried may different combos of power and reflux all the way up to 7 elements. Nothing worked. Flood Flood Flood and Flood Again...

At one point I was running about 3.6 elements and medium cooling flow and was pulling azeotrope @ 19L hr... But in over about 20 minuets the plates flooded and I had to back off to just 1 element and let the plates dump and clear and start over.

I did end up pulling off another 40 gallons of azeotrope yesterday :-)

RedDoorDistillery

Here is a Video of the Reflux on the bottom cup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVshM21ORes