The Big Dunder Pit Thread

FloridaCracker

Punkin wakes up at night in a cold sweat thinking that the dunder is under his bed......

Dunder_Head

After 14 pages of spectacular, but sometimes PHD level Biology, any chance someone can do a seventh grade level, idiots guide to creating a new Dunder Pit?

A "Dunder Head" in Scotland is an "Idiot", I qualify on all levels for this lofty title. I am now searching for flavor from the Dunder Pit Gods, as my rum really lacks any real depth and flavor...

My Wash is simply made (currently) with only Costco Brown Sugar and Red Star DADY yeast. Pot Still, low and slow. I know this will only ever have a light flavor, but it is capable of giving more than it does.

Where I am at with the Dunder Pit: Currently I have 5 gallons of Backset with a locally sourced sugarcane stick and a bug screen over the top. (I am trying to find a goat head, any suggestions?)

Is there anything more I should do?

Cheers!

FloridaCracker

Sounds like you have a good start. When the stick sprouts take it out and put a top on the backset. Within a couple of weeks it should be ready to go. It should have a somewhat pleasant smell. Not fresh but not rotten. Pretty good coating of mold on top. Remember to draw it off below the mold and above the sediment. If it smells really bad something went wrong.

My drum of dunder (or as some call it muckpit) has been happily going for 2 1/2 years now. When it gets a little low I add more cooled backset.

Ron

bluc

What a freakin awesome thread well done =D>

DonMateo

Looks like a very nasty Lacto I had on a couple of on grain bourbon washes that I had to leave for a few weeks while I was doing a rotation on my construction project. Stupidly I threw out the washes. Once I skimmed off the Lacto it smelled amazing. It broke my heart as I had to dump about 600l of wash. Now, thanks to the advice on this board I run them anyway.

grim

Generally, a pellicle is good, mold is bad. Mold should not be a goal for a dunder pit. In most cases it's probably irrelevant, but realize that there are generally no positive molds.

FloridaCracker

Next month the dunder pit that inspired this thread will turn 3 years old.

Still kicking and putting out some kick-ass rum. Today it is probably wondering WTF as the temps here dropped to 25F. :-O

AlTheChemist

I put aside the backset from my 1st rum run and used it in my 2nd run. I kept this backset in a sealed bucket, not desiring or expecting any significant microbial growth considering the backset was heat sterilized form the distillation (and the bucket was sanitized).

I opened the bucket today, preparing to start a dudner pit (see picture bellow) and found a massive mold colony, likely loving the dark humidity. Is this something I should be concerned about considering I used some of this backset in the fermentation of my last run? I have no idea what mold this is and if there are any volatile toxins it could produce. Cracker, does this look like the mold layer yours was growing?

Smaug

Odor?

FloridaCracker

Like Smaug asked, it's all about how it smells. I haven't opened the top of mine in over 2 years so I don't know what it looks like now.

Smaug

Dirt/earthy(like the dump)=No bueno

Sweet/floral(like over ripened fruit)= Muy bueno

No opinion about cheesy smells.

grim

To continue with Smaug's list:

Cheese and sweaty body odor are good.

Fecal matter is bad.

FloridaCracker

@grim said: To continue with Smaug's list:

Cheese and sweaty body odor are good.

Fecal matter is bad.

Thank goodness mine has the floral scent.............

bluc

Is this an aerobic reaction the bacteria has? Would it be possible to create a pit in a airtight sterile container(fermenter with air lock) and just inoculate with the needed strains using health tablets? like the clostridum ones mentioned and I think you can get a butric acid tablet as well..

FloridaCracker

Or add a stick of sugar cane like I did. Increases the chance that you will get the correct bugs.

grim

I think the general consensus is that an anaerobic environment is not necessary, remember that historically, dunder pits were largely outdoor muck pits, exposed to the environment.

That said, from my own experience propagating from cultures, if you are trying to prop a large amount from a very small amount of culture, you'll want to go down this road.

Propionibacterium are facultative anaerobes, they can exist in both aerobic and anaerobic, but prefer anaerobic. However, Clostridium are obligate anaerobes, can't survive long term in oxygen environments. However the strains we are talking about, Butyricum, Saccharobutyricum, etc. are somewhat more oxygen tolerant than the others. They will be stressed by oxygen, but will survive, and if oxygen is removed (as would be during fermentation), they would resume normal activity.

I don't have a lab, so I prop in a sloppy anaerobic way. I boil my culture medium to degas and sterilize, and then will bubble through CO2 and seal my prop cultures.

This is similar to how you would approach prop'ing yeast from a dish or slant. Fill an erlenmeyer with medium, boil it, pitch you culture and cap. The only real difference is I bubble through CO2 to drive off any remaining oxygen, as well as eliminate oxygen in the headspace. This sounds way more complicated than it is. You could probably use a Sodastream to do this pretty easily, although DO NOT LET YOUR SIGNIFICANT OTHER SEE YOU DO THIS, not that I know anything about this.

Smaug

On the small scale, in a very unscientific kinda way, If I ever did this (and I have not), I would let your spent kettle charge cool. Then transfer from bucket to bucket a time or two to introduce just a bit of oxygen back into the liquid and also some micro flora. If you live close to cane country (as I do), this is easiest by just doing the liquid transfer out in the open air. Then lock down your (air tight) bucket to keep out the egg laying insects and store in 90 degree (32 celsius) + or - temps for a couple few weeks. Summer heat is your friend.

Open a few weeks later and you'll have a delightful mold structure formation (if you live in cane country), and the liquid underneath will have a clean sort of sparkle, or clarity in spite of the brown color. Any muddy or heavy cloudy appearance and it likely didn't "take",,,,,so i'm tole.

AlTheChemist

@Smaug said: Odor?

Just took a few whiffs. Its smells like a slightly fruitier, tangier, version of sweet spent molasses. Definitely not unpleasant, and not remotely fecal.

Should be good to go? even though disturbing the thing creates a spore cloud the size of keg cooler?

Considering this went runaway dunder-pit on me, I'm going to go for it. I have a small baby at home which has be a little worried. Do you guys have any data on the occurrence of C. botulinum when using Butyricum?

grim

Butyricum does not produce the botulism toxin.

What might exist in a spontaneously propagated dunder is anyone’s guess though.

grim

It's specifically why I went with the Miyari (Japanese Probiotic) strain, and not some other. Likewise with propionibacterium shermanii - it's used widespread in cheesemaking. Both are safe strains, in addition to any other lacto strains you might use.

Safety assessment of the Clostridium butyricum MIYAIRI 588® probiotic strain including evaluation of antimicrobial sensitivity and presence of Clostridium toxin genes in vitro and teratogenicity in vivo.

That said, we are talking microbiology here, you can get a systemic yeast infection too.

CothermanDistilling

like this?

Miyarisan Strong tablets 90 tablets Probiotics Clostridium Butyricum Supplement @ eBay

Smaug

BTW, the method I have outlined is not for a long term mud pit. The dunder produced would have been typically used within a month or less as a general rule. Summer months would have been the only season for aged dunder production as heat is your friend,,,if I were to have even gone down that road,,,and I have not.

Mold spores at this stage are very young and do not seem to go airborne upon disturbing the mold structure. I have a pic on my home computer. I'll try and remember to post.

Smaug

So the thickness of the mold structure is about 3/16 of an inch (2.8 mm) plus or minus. The structural integrity is quite strong. Very similar to a Kombucha scoby with respect to strength. The roundish white circles were initially brown and much more symmetrical two weeks prior to this picture. They are about the size of a slice of pepperoni I guess?

Anywho,,,,this is what I would have grown,,,if I would have grown,,,and I have not.

grim

Makes me hungry for wings and blue cheese.

Smaug

Lol @grim.

Very floral to smell.

If I were to have done this myself (andeyehavvnot), I would have also had several failures that I would have attributed to not locking down an air tight lid and as a result got a flying insect infestation complete with eggs and all of the other sanitary challenges a bug hatchery must cope with,,,,one assumes.

punkin

FFS i have to wake up to this shit.

DeadlyDunderPitsPunkin

Smaug

When you get a good batch Punkin it's quite nice. Not spooky at all.

If your first batch is a failure and smells of the landfill,,,,not so much.

Not really sure how many different colors and textures there are for what is to be considered a viable mud pit? Also not really sure beyond months worth of maturity what challenges there are in maintaining a healthy mud pit? Anything beyond what I have shown (mold structure wise) was god awful.

I only know what I would have done if I would have done it,,,,and i have not done it.

zymurgybob

@punkin said: FFS i have to wake up to this shit.

DeadlyDunderPitsPunkin

Aw, c'mon, Punkin. Even if we didn't really need to talk dunder, we'd have to every so often, just to keep your chain jerked.

FloridaCracker

I still believe that Punkin has a jar of dunder under his bed somewhere. Just in case.

grim

I'm from New Jersey.

The film, Toxic Avenger, to us that's a documentary.

Helps frame my perspective.