Copper chemical reactions?

Lloyd

@Pancho, you do know that SD is based in China (with the respectful capital C) and that I'm proud of my adoptive country?
There are plenty of places for your China bashing but this forum is not one of them.

I've refrained from posting to this thread because I've never had the problem that @jbierling is experiencing and can offer no first-hand advice. I do know that leaving tails on the plates for a few days will turn the copper an ugly shade of brown but that was just lazy sanitation on my part. Aside from that, and after many, many runs involving dozens of configurations and hundreds of different parts, I've not experienced what the OP is experiencing.
The deposits on the copper, for me, have always been on both sides of the plate and the color was either brown or black (the black was usually specks in the brown).

And I'm now reminded of the black specks that were washing down from the dephlem and onto the top plate. Somehow the SS scrubby strands got grungy and I can only speculate that it was from a combination of tails left there for a week or so and many multiples of runs and to my lazy sanitation.
Not saying that the OP is lazy like me, he posted details of his cleaning regimen that we all should follow.

jbierling

@Lloyd, what ABV do you drive your tails to?

I hope I'm not grasping at long shots here but found this FAQ:

Q. "What does incoloy mean?"
A. Incoloy is a type of extra high-grade stainless steel that helps extend the life of the element, resists burnout and the effects of sand or lime over time. For these elements, incoloy pertains to the element coil, not the threaded base of the elements. The extra low density heating elements are made of incoloy. The normal low density and the high density elements are non-incoloy. Non-incoloy element coils are copper on the inside with a nickel plating on the outside. The threaded bases on all of these elements, including the incoloy, are made of zinc-plated carbon steel.

Is anyone using a 100% pure 304 stainless element including the base?

Lloyd

@jbierling its always different. I have a large stock of ready-to-drink booze built up and don't really need to squeeze out the last bit. Lately I've been stopping the run at the first sign of tails but before then I'd collect as long as the parrot showed about 25% or more which gets nasty when using multiple plates.

Interesting quote you have there. My old Home Depot elements started life bright and shiny but soon were dull and brown. You recon the nickel burnt or dissolved off? Hard to imagine the element would get hot enough to melt nickel.
And the bases

...are made of zinc-plated carbon steel...

Its starting to look like fingers are pointing at the elements.

Drunkas

Ah what the hell might as well chip in with my five cents worth. If it was the SD product's that where causing this to happen then we would have a endemic on our hands. It's not any thing from SD. I own a SD still but have never used it I am just talking from what I have seen on the web site. Now lets say it was low grade copper how ever I don't think that is the problem. One way to clean the copper and I will just point out that you will need to do some extra research on this so you don't kill your self as I am not going to go in to detail on how to do it as it can be dangerous. Is to use vinegar and a 12 volt battery charger. It will clean out all the bad shit...... Or you could just try soaking in vinegar for a extended time but be warned it will tern your copper to a pretty green if it is the good stuff (high grade copper). The only way you are really going to know what is going on is to get the black shit tested. At this point of time its all speculation on what is going on with your still/wash/boiler. Post some pics of your gear so every one can see. It might be something as simple as not using food grade plastic with your fermenter and you are getting some bad stuff in your wash who know's. Pic's tell a thousand words.

Lloyd

What?!?!?? You have a Dash but never used it????!!!!

To clean the copper plates (and SS parts for that matter) is dead easy. In a big ole SS pot of water add some citric acid and bring to a boil. I add 1/4 cup per gallon but even less is often recommended (I've seen 1/8 cup recommended). Cut off the power to the pot and add the copper or SS parts and let soak til like new (about 15 minutes at most) and rinse with fresh clean water. Heavy deposit may require scrubbing and a repeated citric acid bath.
Good as new.

On a commercial scale "in still CIP" a citric acid solution is pumped through the still from a hot holding tank and reclaimed to the same tank for future use. A flush of fresh clean water completes the process.

Most of us have a spare keg for the citric acid solution but are lacking the pump and CIP at the top of the column. The citric acid solution should be heated to near boiling to be effective.

Me? I let it ride til it gets grungy and boil the parts on the stove top because I'm not a commercial distiller and my needs are part-time. If full-time commercial I'd surely have an active CIP solution.

Drunkas

@Lloyd said: What?!?!?? You have a Dash but never used it????!!!!

Yes I have a dash but have never used it. With my work and what is going on atm I don't have time. I'm a pot stiller.
But I was referring to pickling the copper to remove all the impurities. Can be done with any type of metal if you have the right tools. I use a crood device I made my self with a battery charger it works but its crood I have had some kicks from it but I got all the safety devices in line if it all goes to shit. :))

Lloyd

Even a bath in hot vinegar or backset does the trick, nothing fancy and never get electrocuted.
Not sure what other acids works but these common ones do fine.

Two or three cups of plain white vinegar per gallon in the boiler and run it hard will make the copper sparkle. Heard told it needs to be neutralized with baking soda solution afterwards but I just flushed with water and did a run to no ill effects. Your mileage may vary.

CothermanDistilling

I use 1/4c of the green phosphoric acid sold in the painting department as etcher in a gallon of water, it gets it pretty clean, not pure pink, but I think by that time I would be taking off metal....

I have a CD, a GB4 and 380L that have never been used... ;-)

@drunkas , you need to use your dash to see the magic, it may change how you pot still, you may decide to run harder and faster on your stripping runs to fuel your dash to make even better 'pot stilled' product.....

jbierling

@Lloyd said: Even a bath in hot vinegar or backset does the trick,

Wouldn't a bath in backset be sort of a "dirty" way of cleaning? It seems that the backset is what you're trying to clean off.

Smaug

Spent wash is acidic. The goal is to expose copper. He is just expaining another cost effective way to clean. There may be a "black liquor" tax credit associated with doing so. Big sugar gets credit for using cane stalk waste for a fuel source. Not sure if those credits expired?

FullySilenced

@Drunkas if your time is so limited you really need to get the Dash set up you will only spend half the time or less distilling... and get much better product in the end...

FS

don't see how you can have a dash and not use it from that aspect.

captainshooch

I had a couple of fermenters full and ready waiting for my DASH-2 to arrive so I could put her to work ASAP and now in the same boat waiting for CD parts to arrive so I can let'er rip. The new version of my CD taht is.

punkin

@jbierling said: Wouldn't a bath in backset be sort of a "dirty" way of cleaning? It seems that the backset is what you're trying to clean off.

Hot backset works extremeley well in cleaning up copper. As Larry said, it's acidic. Just fill a bucket straight from the boiler and throw any copper in there overnight.

jbierling

Sure, its acidic, but its also the same gunk that made the plates dirty in the first place. Would you run it through a CIP system for the column just like you might a citric solution? I'd be leery of going that far, but perhaps not!

punkin

I don't know what to say, it works.

I only ever clean the copper after it's been worked, so when the still is new. It takes a long time normally to get so tarnished that the copper stops working. Water works well for my CIP.

Prairiepiss

Many of the elements have a spacer type thing. That sits at the base between the two elements. The elements I have they are aluminum. This would react galvineticaly with the copper and any stray electrical current. The acidic was would add the third component. Stainless and copper are pretty close to each other on the galvanic scale. So really shouldn't have much problem there. But if in fact you have something like aluminum on the elements. It's further away from copper on the scale. And you will have problems. The aluminum being softer and in the acid bath. Would of course give up more freely.

I know on ad you said it is mainly on the bottom plate. So I still beleave its from under that plate. So basically the boiler.

What are you using for an element controller? three elements all in one circuit? Or separate. Same controller or separate controllers? 240 or 480vac?

Take a VOM volt ohm meter. Put one lead in the liquid in the boiler. The other on the boiler ground. Test for stray voltage. Both AC and DC. Turn the controllers up and down. Single the elements out and test each one. You should be able to do this with water. But since the problem only happens with certain batches. It mite be wise to test for stray voltage with a ferment. You also might want to do it cold and hot. Problem is with alcohol you don't want to be doing it while its boiling. So do it on heatup. Before it boils.

You should also test the ground continuity of all the still parts. Set the VOM to ohm and test from the boiler ground. To each individual piece of metal. Including that plate.

Stray voltage can be a bitch. I lost a whole tank of expensive fish to a bad pump. That was letting 12 dc run through the water. I have to deal with stray voltage all the time. Anything from induced stray voltage to battery acid between a battery case induced. Our newer computer controlled systems hate stray voltages.

Just thinking outloud again.

Lloyd

Me too, water only through a valve at the top of the column to flush out the nasty tails.
Its not a true CIP setup but its cheap and easy.

RedDoorDistillery

What @Prairiepiss said.... Free current is bad. And I am going to guess seeing as you said your element are not electrically grounded that you do have Free current. Also dangerous. 220v no ground... Liquid.... So many ways that it could go bad fast on you.

Prairiepiss

Most all water heater elements don't have a means of grounding. It has to be done physically to the boiler.

Here are a couple of pics of the spacer I was talking about. They aren't on all my elements. Only some of them. The first pic is a new element. And the second is a burned up old one. That was used for water. You can see the spacer thing is deteriorated on it.

punkin

That's a sacrificial anode by the looks of things. It's spossed to deteriorate to protect the tank.

jbierling

@Prairiepiss said: I know on ad you said it is mainly on the bottom plate. So I still beleave its from under that plate. So basically the boiler.

Agree.

What are you using for an element controller? three elements all in one circuit? Or separate. Same controller or separate controllers? 240 or 480vac?

The elements are individually on/off. One 40amp 240v circuit for two 4500w elements, one 20amp 120v circuit for one 5500w/4 element.

Take a VOM volt ohm meter. You should also test the ground continuity of all the still parts.

I'll see what I can do.

Most all water heater elements don't have a means of grounding. It has to be done physically to the boiler.

Is the grounding lug on the element guard kit sufficient?

Here are a couple of pics of the spacer I was talking about

When it existed, I'd always assumed the function of that was to provide support for the elements not a sacrificial anode. In any case, I'd have had problem when using elements with or without that.

Prairiepiss

The grounding lug is suppose to be enough? But for my sanity I run another wire from it and physically connect it to the boiler. Just my preference. Others would disagree.

I'm use to a separate sacrificial anode.

Lloyd

Seems I remember Rednose on another forum was using copper rods in his boilers, much like we attach an element to the boiler. He considered them sacrificial.

CothermanDistilling

I bought these Camco 11553 RV Magnesium Anode Rod about 3 years ago, they have not been used yet...

jbierling

@CothermanDistilling said: they have not been used yet

Meaning you haven't installed them or they are in pristine condition?

Is this something that you could just throw in the bottom of the boiler (maybe along with some copper pipe?) or must for some reason it be mounted by the threads from the outside?

CothermanDistilling

in package, bought for my hot liquor tank after reading about the little bit of rust on the camco element bases.. one of the bazillion projects I have

must be bonded to the tank somehow, the 1/2" NPT thread does that

jbierling

Finally got my test strips in. I tested several things:

1. Water rinsed off the copper scrubber
2. Wash
3. Backset (unfortunately only from the 2nd still)
4. Distillate

I had three tests:

1. Zinc.
2. General Metals
3. Copper

If you see two strips in a picture, for comparison, one is clean (unused) the other with contact with the liquid.

Captions:

Zinc test with scrubber

Metals test with scrubber

Copper test # 1 with scrubber

Copper test # 2 with scrubber

Zinc test with wash

Metals test with wash

Zinc test with backset

Metals test with backset

Zinc test with distillate

Zinc test with scrubber again

Tentative conclusions:

Obvious presence of zinc on the copper scrubber.
Little to no copper.
Backset acquired limited amounts of metals.
Assuming the tests are accurate for 50% alcohol, nothing is present in the distillate.

Thoughts?

RedDoorDistillery

So pretty clear that the raw Wash itself is not the supplier of the metals. But you have Zinc coming from somewhere. And the backset is getting contaminated with Zinc after the run.

Were the tests on the scrubbers done on New Scrubber or Used ones? If Used ones I would suggest you run the Zinc test on a New Scrubber and see if you get a positive Zinc Test. Zinc Test on New Scrubber... Bingo..

If Negative Test on New Scrubber. The next thing I would do is add water to the still. Add enough acid to make the water acidic like you wash. Heat the water up for some time but not enough to put vapor up the column or remove the column completely and just heat up the water. You don't want to let the Column drip anything back into the still water. Test water for Zinc. If no Zinc in heated water. It must be coming from the column somewhere. But I am going to bet it is the Boiler or Elements. If it is not the Scrubbers.

Smaug

@jbierling said: nothing is present in the distillate

That's why they call it distillation.

CothermanDistilling

smartass...

Like @RedDoorDistillery said, then a similar test on an externally heated (gas fired) boiler would be the next logical test..