Copper chemical reactions?

crystal_skull

Did you take out the stainless one in the dephleg to?

brantoken

ok my guess that it a low melting point metal, that leaves out stainless, copper and nylon ( no metal there) for sure. are there any parts in you system that are beginning to show a pitted surface, if not you can rule that out. Any plastic in the system, some plastics use strange fillers for things like flame retardant...etc. Still you would see erosion. I suspect it isn't the hardware. Since in only happens with grain, perhaps some sort of additive, a preservative or nutrient. I am thinking bismuth...., sodium maybe phosphorus is a metal as well in pure form. what is interesting is that it is in the defleg, so a metal that got in the vapor path? that is weird.

punkin

I don't think it has anything to do with metals. Not that i do know what it is, but i do know that i have seen it before as has many others, just not in quantities like that.

Rocky_Creek

It's not important to clean the black off the copper. The reaction you want works with copper oxide as well as copper. In fact it probably protects the copper from further deterioration.

unsub

What type of fermenter are you using @jbierling, plastic, metal or other? Are you using an aquarium heater to keep the wash up to temp or maybe have any brass or any other connectors exposed to the wash during the fermentation? How do you transfer the wash to the boiler? Is it with a mechanical/motorized pump?

Sorry for the rapid fire questions, just a few thoughts I had.

RedDoorDistillery

You do want to clean the copper. The reaction between the copper and sulfur you are looking for does work with copper oxide but in a reduced amount. Does it need to be removed after every run? No. But the more fresh copper you have exposed the better the reaction works. If you never clean the copper you will eventually stop getting the removal of sulfides from your vapor.

jbierling

@crystal_skull Stainless remains though that may be next to take out. I find the cooling capacity much diminished without anything directly inhibiting the vapor path.

@brantoken I don't think anything is melting. I do suspect something is degrading and/or giving off some sort of coating and attaching itself to copper.

@punkin Many others?

@Rocky_Creek That was my thought too. At least I feel a little better about the copper not always being shiny.

@unsub Both stainless 150g conicals and 55g food grade plastic. Both have shown the problem. No heaters. No brass. I'm using a pump.

@RedDoorDistillery What do you do for cleaning?

nvnovrts

Fusel oils?

jbierling

For what its worth, the silver seems to start in the fores/heads. Its hard to say how long it continues.

RedDoorDistillery

@jbierling I do not rely on Copper to remove my sulfides my system is entirely stainless steel. I use another process to eliminate the sulfides. The only copper I have in my system is a small section of copper mesh after the product condenser. I use this more as a way to test that my other process is actually working. After the run I check the copper to make sure it is still clean.

grim

Aren't most of the sulfur/copper reaction products blue, green, or brown?

What is throwing me off is the fact that it appears silver, or almost a reflective black/graphite.

I'm still thinking some kind of Zinc.

How are you clearing your wash before distilling? If you aren't, any chance you can run through the same process, but instead crash cool the wash and/or use fining agents to eliminate as much yeast as possible?

You've got me addicted to this problem, I'm now checking this thread multiple times per day for updates.

Fluxed

For what it's worth, I've never seen a supposed sulfur/copper reaction produce a silver color like that.

It's usually faded brown copper with tints of blue/green. I've never let it go further than that without cleaning though.

Also, isn't sulfur corrosion usually worse in sugar mashes than it is in all-grain bills?

If all the components look un-disturbed, as others have said, it's something in the mash.

jbierling

@grim said: You've got me addicted to this problem, I'm now checking this thread multiple times per day for updates.

I really wish I wasn't providing entertainment, but if you're addicted, there's another fix here.

jbierling

So I have 1/2 gallon of the wash remaining. Ph 4.1-4.2. Any suggestions on who I might send it to to see if there is something unusual about it?

Whitecap

Zinc could be coming from the heating elements. I recall seeing some of the elements at the big box stores advertising a zinc coating on the package. I think it was suppose to make them more durable. If you're direct heating the wash it makes sense that zinc coating could be degrading.

BenStiller

Since the coating is being produced only on the copper, it seems to me that an electrochemical (galvanic) reaction may be involved.

Would it be possible to electrically isolate one of the plates from the still by using a specially cut gasket in your next run?

RedDoorDistillery

@jbierling Do you have your element electrically grounded? Normal heating elements do not have a ground lug. Without a ground as BenStiller says you may have a galvanic reaction happening between the element and the copper plate. The more acidic the liquid is the better the galvanic plating reaction can work.

FullySilenced

That's actually not a bad idea to get an earth ground and an electrical neutral on the boiler...

FS

fnulnu

For what it's worth I have been in a plant before that hot dipped mild steel in a vat of melted zinc and your pictures of the material you are getting look eerily similar to what that looked like. Mind you the zinc was hot and liquified at that point. I think the other forum members that think its galvanizing are right. Now where is it exactly coming from and why? It would be hard for me to believe your wash is too acidic. Grim, Benstiller and Rdd I think are on to something saying it's some kind of reaction between materials.

Rocky_Creek

RedDoorDistillery Care to elaborate on the non copper process?

punkin

@Rocky_Creek said: RedDoorDistillery Care to elaborate on the non copper process?

No, he has stated elsewhere already that he doesn't. Please let it lie.

RedDoorDistillery

@Rocky_Creek I posted this on my thread when I was asked there.

I am not at liberty to say. As a Commercial Distiller if I were to provide this info and someone gets hurt or uses the wrong thing I could be held liable. There is a right way and many wrong ways. Sorry but I can not share knowledge due to potential liability if someone does it wrong.

nvnovrts

@jbierling said: So I have 1/2 gallon of the wash remaining. Ph 4.1-4.2. Any suggestions on who I might send it to to see if there is something unusual about it?

ETS or Scott can do analyze for just about anything.

Rocky_Creek

Sorry, I did not remember any reference to the process previously.

jbierling

@RedDoorDistillery No. But if grounding was the problem would a reaction happen when running a wash, but not low wines? If acidity is the issue, I'd guess the answer would be "maybe", but in any case, its one thing to try.

I've used at least three completely different brands of 4500w elements during mash runs that have caused the silver. Most recently this one: Utilitech Water Heater Element 4500W Screw. The description says its stainless.

@nvnovrts I'll contact those labs.

Pancho

Do a heavy metal analysis. About 150 bucks. It could be a totally natural mineral from the mash. Could it be solder flux from your still. If its from the wash that's the better of the two. But after working in china 1990 to 2000 I can tell you anything they make from metal is recycled metal and loaded with crap that bleeds out of the metals. Cheap copper scrubbers will do that too. Put some of that silver sludge you are finding on an old silver coin or tarnished silverware and rub it into the tarnished silver and see if it 'shines' it up and 'melts into' an old silver spoon. Some heavy metals will shine old silver to look like a fresh minted coin. I've seen to many adulterated products loaded with heavy metal so I get skeptical of everything. And then I'm drinking rice wine, so probably jumping to conclusions.

Law_Of_Ohms

Its unicorn blood. Somewhere, the fairy's are weeping.

punkin

@Pancho said: Do a heavy metal analysis. About 150 bucks. It could be a totally natural mineral from the mash. Could it be solder flux from your still. If its from the wash that's the better of the two. But after working in china 1990 to 2000 I can tell you anything they make from metal is recycled metal and loaded with crap that bleeds out of the metals. Cheap copper scrubbers will do that too. Put some of that silver sludge you are finding on an old silver coin or tarnished silverware and rub it into the tarnished silver and see if it 'shines' it up and 'melts into' an old silver spoon. Some heavy metals will shine old silver to look like a fresh minted coin. I've seen to many adulterated products loaded with heavy metal so I get skeptical of everything. And then I'm drinking rice wine, so probably jumping to conclusions.

And here i am, skeptical of every word you type. =;

BenStiller

It does not seem likely to me that it would a component of the still that is disolved, vaporized and redoposited only on the copper plates. Looking at the pictures, it seems like a significant amount of material is coating your plates; if it would be a part of your still, you would notice degradation somewhere.

It seems worthy to me to investigate a problem caused by a wash component through a galvanic process which is specific to your equipment (any other metals than SS and copper in there?). I think that an all SS element and a grounded boiler are not hard to try and grounding is important for the safety of the equipment as well.

jbierling

The "metal" is coming from somewhere and everything in the process is theoretically SS. The elements are SS, the boiler is SD's SS, all the brew hardware is SS. Something may not be what it's advertised to be.

I did find at least one reference to a copper element that had a zinc coated base so I wonder a bit if the base of the elements aren't SS. I'm getting some metal test strips that I'm hoping will help identify what's going on.