Moving Flaked Corn Wort to Fermenter

zizther

Hey.

I am doing flaked corn and malted barley moonshine. At the moment when it comes to moving the wort to the fermenter it is a process of me taking some wort and squeezing it by hand in a nylon threaded bag. I do this for ~45litres of water and grain. Is there a way of doing this which doesn't require me to do this by hand. I have to do it by hand because I need to get all the liquid from the flaked grain which has absorbed the water in the mashing process.
My setup is no where near industrial, I am looking for a suitable sized separation pump, or maybe some sort of press which could help.

Your suggestions are appreciated.

grim

IMHO - Strainer bag is the easiest way for your volume.

Other alternatives are either incredibly expensive, or you'll spend more time breaking down and cleaning machinery as you do processing an entire batch. Cheap screw press like you might use for grapes/wine? Sure, but you'll need to fit your nylon bag inside, and probably do multiple passes. The high pressure risks bursting the bag. When you are done, you need to clean the bag and the press.

Ideal solution, centrifuge or filter press. Both outrageously expensive and total time spent would likely be the same. Not to mention you would need pumps to move solids, you would have a ton of losses just in the hoses, pumps, and machinery.

grim

I always thought it was easier to separate after fermentation for a few reasons.

You aren't risking contaminating your wort.

You are dealing with reasonable temperatures (70-80f), and not scorching hot liquid.

Viscosity is significantly lower, as sugars and dextrins are eliminated.

Less volume of solids post-fermentation, as you'll get some additional saccharification during the fermentation process (with the right enzymes).

Mash day is already long enough, having to separate after mashing sounds like a terrible way to end the day.

In addition, using something like a beta glucanase/xylanase will further reduce viscosity post-fermentation, making it even easier to separate.

Not to mention your yield will be much higher.

zizther

@grim you make some good points. It would be good to experiment fermenting on the grain and seeing the result. If fermenting on the grain would you recommend using beta glucanase/xylanase.

Do you think it would also keep more of the corn flavour. Ole Smoky is a favourite of mine and it seems to keep quite a strong corn flavour. I am using a reflux still with 2 plates at the moment, i don't know if that would contribute to the lack of flavour compared the potstill method.

grim

No you don't need the viscosity enzymes. If you had wheat or rye, they would be much more effective than with only corn and barley. It'll make the post-ferment separation a little bit easier.

On grain, glucoamylase will have a bigger bang for your buck, especially if you conversion efficiency is looking a little bit low right now.

I believe on-grain fermentation yields more flavor, and on-grain distillation more flavor still.

Going from pot to 2 plates, you might find that you need to cut deeper into tails to yield a similar flavor profile. Or, use your plates to increase yield by using reflux only during heads and tails, but not during hearts ... or some variation thereof.

zizther

Thanks @grim. Will do some more playing around.

jacksonbrown

Do they also reduce the need for an nutrients?

crozdog

As an alternative, Have you thought of lautering using a false bottom in your mash tun? Just like beer brewers do.

grim

Throw some shrimp and tomato in those grits, it makes cleaning out the mash tun go easier.

crozdog

I prefer rice hulls

zizther

@crozdog i have looked at kits like the grainfather or braumeister. They do look impressive and feel like they could be helpful in different ways, i just feel as if they don't offer me enough for the money they are vs what I can do at the moment without them, because my recipe is very simple it doesn't take much. I do like the idea of a false bottom, I would still need to put the spent grain into a strainer bag and get the liquid out by hand though. I think if I were to use cracked corn instead of flaked this would be ideal.

Sunshine

I know someone ;) who uses flakes and strains them after fermentation simply with a very large strainer and a cotton cloth in it. It is a bit of a mess, but if the wash had time to settle and the clear part has been carefully removed it is not that much more work.

zizther

Do you feel as if it would save you time compared to doing it by hand?

Sunshine

of course it safes time. For commercial scale I would go for a fruit press or so, though.

crozdog

@zizther, yeah the GF etc are nice bits of kit, however I was referring to you using a basic mash tun without the bells and whistles. if you are not sure what I mean, do some research on brewing eg on How to Brew.

Mash tuns are easy enough to make out of blue HDPE drums, some insulation and some plumbing fittings. I made mine with 1.5" braided hose for a filter screen in the bottom of a 200l drum - but would prefer a decent false bottom.

Norcal have a lot of standard false bottom models and also do custom.

many home brewers use flaked corn.

zizther

@crozdog That's good stuff. Yeah I knew what you were referring to :) It is good to see how others manage their setups.

zizther

Since I asked the original question I have kept doing it manually, this has been fine, besides it being a little stressful on the wrists. I am now looking to up the scale of production to a 700 litre ferment, a don't really want to look at doing all that by hand.

At this volume is there a separator pump or some method which would be good to remove the grain from the mash?

I see Kings County Distillery have some sort of contraption when they separate, i don't know if it is a particular pump or just some physics. I did enquire with them, but they haven't got back to me.

Any thoughts on a large scale operation would be appreciated.

Thanks

Schiefe4

@zizther,

I asked about centrifuges and I was sent the attached files. They reflect what grim said earlier...

@grim said: Ideal solution, centrifuge or filter press. Both outrageously expensive and total time spent would likely be the same. Not to mention you would need pumps to move solids, you would have a ton of losses just in the hoses, pumps, and machinery.

grim

Could build a respectable distillery for the cost of a centrifuge... including steam.

zizther

Totally. And I am not in the position to afford one of those. There must be someway of making a home made version which can do something similar, doesn't have to be perfect, but allows me to stop doing it by hand. I am not after the best clarity.

A wine press is the next best thing, but again, the bigger versions start to to cost a bit.

bbok

EDIT: need to properly read OP before being a dumbass

zymurgybob

I'm sure lots of you remember Butch Coolidge's washing machine centrifuge story @ AD, but it's worth bringing up again. A great laugh, but also good function...often.

grim

You guys have seen what we do, right? For post-distillation separation?

TheMechWarrior

Remind everyone @grim

grim

Shitty video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Toz7i-rG9yI

grim

This is nothing more than a half a polyethylene drum, we welded together an internal frame and bolted it in place. On top of the frame is a # 6 mesh stainless screen.

We pump hot stillage onto the screen. We use a squeegee to keep the screen from getting occluded - as material like husk and corn skin will easily occlude even a big gap screen like # 6.

This is exactly what happens inside something like a Russell Finex or a Kason Centrisifter.

Vibrators don't work. Slanting the screen doesn't work. Maybe if you used something like wedge wire on the horizontal and had a very long run, you could get the stillage to slide down as it drained.

I can do a full still load (265g) of stillage with 1000+ pounds of grain in 30 minutes. When I'm done I just rinse down.

Stillage gets scooped into drums and garbage cans for farmer to pick up. Is it totally dry? No. But it is more dry than wet, and easily moved/shoveled, dumped. Probably 80-90% of the liquid is removed. You need to physically squeeze the spent grain to get moisture out.

Total cost to put the thing together is maybe $200.

One thing, the squeegee we use has a replaceable wiper - we use silicone that we cut from a sheet - since boiling stillage does a number on it.

The only modification I'm going to do with this is to rebuild this with a larger container - I have a tote that is 3' x 5' and on wheels, and to fix a triclamp ferrule to be able to attach the hose to the feed.

I am 100% satisfied - we easily run through 8000 pounds a grain a month with this.

grim

The first revelation here is that a wide mesh screen is significantly more effective than something like perforated stainless sheet, which doesn't really work.

A # 6 Mesh screen is nearly entirely open area, with large gaps. It works because the grain wants to stick to the grain, not because the screen is acting like a filter.

The second revelation is that this process is significantly faster if you are working with stillage closer to boiling temperature compared to stillage around 100f. The colder it gets, less willing the liquid is to drain off very quickly - temperature significantly impacts viscosity.

Good luck with flour - nothing will separate flour effectively except a centrifuge or filter press. I completely understand why so many think this is a compelling solution - but what it makes easy at the front-end of the process, it significantly complicates on the back-end of the process. In fact - the whole process is significantly easier if your corn is cracked slightly on the larger side. Is it less efficient? Oh, for sure, but it makes separation even easier.

zizther

@grim That looks like the type of things that could work for me. I will give building something similar a go.

Smaug

@grim your nails look amazing. Where do you have them done?

punkin

You after that look Larry?

Smaug

@punkin said: You after that look Larry?

I mean,,,, unless you think it wouldn't look as nice on me as it does Grim?