Extra Plates or Packed Column?

yurgle

Hi All,

I have been lurking here for a while trying to glean as much from you all as possible, but this is my first post.

On another thread relating to making vodka via a Dash 2, @CothermanDistilling asked...

@CothermanDistilling said: Say you were at 6 plates, and you had 2' or so more headroom, would you add more plates or a packed column for a better neutral... not considering cost, what method you you choose?

I have been wondering the same thing and have been unable to find an answer via a search of the forum. Wondering if folks may offer some guidance or experience?

Cheers

Lloyd

I think its hard to beat plates for a flavored product but also hard to beat packing for a neutral product.

Myles

Different tools for different jobs. Depends on how much time you spend making flavoured compared to how much time you spend making vodka.

I currently make vodka on a pot still, and real neutral on a packed column. Personally I don't drink the neutral until after it has had flavour added to it. You know what I mean though 8-|

Edit: I see a distinction between vodka and neutral that perhaps others don't. I can see why you would wish to make vodka on a plated column rig, especially if it was your main product. Even more if it is a high quality sipping vodka that retains slight residual flavour and mouth feel.

That is different from true neutral in my book, but perhaps others don't see it my way. I don't know what the popular view is but I suspect you need to add a lot of extra plates to get from vodka to neutral. Possibly a packed column to complement your plated vodka still might be an option.

vooharmy

@myles I'm glad you made this distinction because I agree 100%. A lot of people talk about vodka and neutral interchangeably. I feel they are very much different products, I guess I draw such a conclusion because I drink all my spirits neat or on ice. If you tend to enjoy your spirits mixed then the difference is less clear.

SDeurope

Yes for the clear distinction between vodka and neutral. There is no point in drinking neutral except when you only want to get drunk (but who wants that?), but drinking good vodka pure can be a real pleasure.

My recommendation: Do not refrigerate vodka (or any fine spirit) and do not drink it on ice, but at the ideal drinking temperature of 15-18°C. That's where you get the most flavor reception (the colder the less quality in tasting). This may come as a surprise for some, it even is stated on vodka bottles to drink cold (though I can only guess that's to distract from poor quality), but we had extensive tasting sessions during our MoB education and it really makes a huge difference. If the booze is of high quality you will enjoy drinking it pure and unchilled! ;)

grim

Drinking Vodka neat? Reminds me of a time years back during spring break, somewhere on a beach in Mexico, where one of my colleagues thought the appropriate drink to pair with the blazing afternoon sun would be a bottle of scotch. No ice. This was during college years, where money was tight, so who were we to argue the appropriateness of his selection?

I never thought it was actually possible to sweat out scotch. I assure you it is, literally, Johnny Walker actually coming right out of your pores.

God that was brutal. Mexico of all places, like there was some kind of shortage of Tequila and limes.

A good place for your spirits that need a bit of a chill is in your red wine fridge.

punkin

The most popular of all the combinations i sell are the 4" 6 plated columns in either Dash or Crystal Dragon with a 510mm TC section on top of the plates below the reflux condensor for packing. This is a really versatile rig and it has many users on here.

The plates and packed section on stripped light flavoured low wines for neutral or vodka and the plates alone with wash for brown spirits. B-)

Myles

Some vodka is undrinkable unless chilled. In contrast though there is vodka that is as good as fine cognac. How many of you would put ice in a premium brandy?

Some italian restaurants even put a blast of steam through a Vechia Romana. Depends where you go.

Moonshine

@Myles said: Some vodka is undrinkable unless chilled.

I'd clearly would want to avoid those. Such can lead to :-&

vooharmy

Nothing pleasant about 25 degrees+ booze. If room temp for me was 18 deg ( such as winter) I wouldn't use ice either. My Ron Zacapa XO taste like soft drink so naturally it doesn't need Ice :x

Kapea

Your preception of flavors changes with the temperature a beverage is consumed at. A quick trial of a beverage (any beverage) tasted at almost freezing temperature, and then tasted several times as it warms to ambient temperature will show this to be true. Which temperature is preferable is highly subjective.

I disagree that there is a clear distinction between vodka and neutal spirits. I believe the goal of many vodka makers down through the ages was to produce as neutral a beverage as possible. They were limited by the equipment and techniques they used. The paradigm became, "The (residual) flavor in MY vodka is what TRUE vodka tastes like!" And they looked down their noses at anything else.

There is no point in drinking neutral except to get drunk? Really? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is inferior. It just means you don't like it. I like it a lot. There is a lot going on in very neutral spirits. However, much of it is very subtle, and not perceived the same way as what many look for in other alcoholic beverages.

Sometimes I drink it chilled, sometimes not. Sometimes I drink it at cask strength, sometimes diluted with a splash of filtered rainwater in the 30% range. I rarely drink it mixed with anything besides water, in solid or liquid form.

I find that the sensory input from neutral is so subtle that it is mostly lost when served mixed with anything besides soft water. Many enjoy neutral when it is used as a base for other flavored drinks. They are only adding it to their favorite flavors so they can get drunk? (but who wants that?)

CothermanDistilling

@Myles said:

Edit: I see a distinction between vodka and neutral that perhaps others don't. I can see why you would wish to make vodka on a plated column rig, especially if it was your main product. Even more if it is a high quality sipping vodka that retains slight residual flavour and mouth feel.

now I am confused... the best vodka I have had to date is Woody Creek, and it is made on a plated still... albeit a $500k Carl...

SDeurope

@Kapea said: There is no point in drinking neutral except to get drunk? Really? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is inferior.

Didn't mean that neutral is inferior at all, but yes, I'm biased because most vodkas do not seem to make much sense to me. I'm all for the clean and subtle, but the taste buds want to have something more than pure ethanol. My latest obsession is with apple vodka though I haven't tasted any yet...

Myles

Its just personal taste. I know I don't like drinking absolutely clean neutral that comes off the packed column. I just use it as a base spirit for infused products. But thats no different to using it as a base in a coctail.

When I drink it unmixed though I like a bit of flavour left in. It is no different with other spirits though, some of the highly refined white rums I would only drink mixed.

The neutral tastes fine to me when it has had fruit in it for a few months. ;)

Sunshine

it is an old trick of the owners of skiing pubs in the Austrian mountains to serve their schnapps chilled, to hide the poor quality. >:)

yurgle

thanks all for comments, and cheers @punkin its exactly what I am looking at

punkin

You are very welcome.

luckyliqueur

@Punkin 4" 6 plated columns in either Dash or Crystal Dragon with a 510mm TC section on top.

Do you have any figures on what the maximum through put is in that configuration?

If a 5" Dash can deliver up to 7 litres per hour in "standard mode"; what does a TC section on top do to the rate?

punkin

I don't personally but maybe one of the guys who are running those setups will pipe in?

Smaug

That's kind of a tricky question LL in that it largely depends on how clean you want your product to be. At this very moment here in the US there is a famous distiller doing consulting work here in the states and recommending an 8 plated column for whiskey. If you can imagine that??

But he has been around a good long while and uses a dephlegmator as a true "partial reflux condenser" and likely recommends collecting his foreshot under partial reflux rather than 100% reflux mode.

Then we have an award winning (gold medal winner) distiller in Alabama that compresses heads by running his two plate system in 100% reflux mode rather than partial reflux.

Not sure if you understand my point, but there is just more than one way to make whiskey,,,,, or rum,,,,,,,,, or vodka......or chicken soup.

luckyliqueur

The plates and packed section on stripped light flavoured low wines for neutral or vodka . . . . . and the plates alone with wash for brown spirits

Howdy @Smaug

The simple answer is to say, I'm asking about Neutral.

I want the clean stuff so I can mix it with various botanicals.

My VM delivers what I want . . . but if there's a faster way to get neutral, then I'm all ears.

TheMechWarrior

Volumetric throughput is driven by power, since most stills operate at far less than maximum power when doing a spirit run you are then limiting your volumetric throughput rate to account for your lack of HETP when making a neutral.

It makes sense to me that adding more HETP in the form of more plates or packing enables you to running a higher power therefore throughput rate for the same abv output.

There are limits with respect to maximum vapour speed velocities per given diameter etc but you get the picture.

So in essence with more HETP you can get more neutral per hour, you can jump on over the HETP calcs pages and damn near work out what your improvements might be.

But nothing beats trying something and finding out

Myles

Running a packed VM at near full speed is a very nervous undertaking. Can't comment about doing the same on a plated version. Best way to increase your speed is to use a wider column.

If it is less than optimum height it just means that you are running at higher reflux rates and cruising, instead of going flat out.

The greater throughput of the wider column compensates, so you get a faster product rate, and a more comfortable (for the operator) run.

Kapea

Driving too hard with the addition of plates, theoretical or real, causes flooding (says the man with the umbrella :D ) More plates, more friction, less power needed to flood.

Column diameter is the main product rate driver. With greater diameter, more power is required to reach the flooding point.

Or mo bettah, the point just below flooding (max take off rate)

luckyliqueur

Hi

My VM is 3inch by 6 feet. I run on gas, and in fear of flooding I do drive slow.

I get the point about having a wider column (which is why I went straight to a 3" and not 2").

It would be great to know what a 6 plate pro-cap 4" and 5" Dash would do with the 510mm TC section on top of the plates below the reflux condensor for packing when making Neutral.

Regards

Lloyd

Yikes, I don't think I ever produced any 5" TC pipe.
Could probably do it by piecing together the 5" glass sections that I have on hand though...
Would need to do some scrubby shopping to pack it. Lordy there is sure not enough of them in my bobbles to pack that.

Does seem I did a 4" hybrid as you describe but the run data is now a blurred and distant memory.

So doggone many options, I still have a 4" x 510mm section that is packed with SS wool. But stepping down from 6 x 5" ProCap plates to a 4" packed section on top may not be the most productive configuration?
Certainly wouldn't hurt the purity but may skew the production data vs using a 5" packed section.

My personal 5" Crystal Dragon is a queer beast - too small to produce cases and cases of bottled booze for sale yet big enough for the needs of a small neighborhood of heavy drinkers. For a family of 1 to 3 moderate drinkers it wouldn't see much action.
Tool of choice, though, for filling a personal barrel or two. Mine sits on a 70L boiler with 7.2kW of elements and that's plenty of power but for a 5" I think the boiler size should be bigger - perhaps 120 liters or so.

luckyliqueur

Loyd thou art the Grand Poobah of SD ~ so nice to read your words.

Boiler wise I'm gearing up for something in the 300L+ ball park.

And hand on my heart; I will always be stripping (in a separate boiler) DWWG (el al) to feed my Neutral making machine . . . . what ever that machine may look like in the future

The fact is I've had a talk with "her in doors" and reminded I've "over engineered" my whole life . . . . so why would/should/can I stop now?

Praise the Lords, I've been given the "green light' to forth and distill ~she don't worry if i "super size" or I don't. She knows I got a condition that can't be fixed.

I'd rather prioritise time to mixing neutral with botanicals, than making the neutral itself . . . . . hence my interest knowing in advance, what a sort of product volume I could expect from the the configuration (of 4" and 5 " pro cap) described by @punkin.

I hope that makes sense . . . . . . I've been imbibing as I write (heck maybe nobody can tell me what the flow through rate is with a packed section on a 6 plate pro-cap Dash . . . @Sadi are you listening?)

Ciao

grim

@TheMechWarrior said: It makes sense to me that adding more HETP in the form of more plates or packing enables you to running a higher power therefore throughput rate for the same abv output. There are limits with respect to maximum vapour speed velocities per given diameter etc but you get the picture.

That's how I see it as well, however the one thing to consider is the operating parameters for plates and packing are not the same. While the higher turndown ratio for plates gives you a little more flexibility, the hybrid will need to run within a tighter set of operating conditions.

luckyliqueur

Yes @grim ; that's why I'm asking if there is any real-world experience on the forum.

Going to knock-out now . . . . good night nurse.

Regards

TheMechWarrior

Agreed grim, that's why I mentioned the vapour speed velocity comment.

I don't think @luckyliqueur is going to get the specific data he's looking for without actually doing the trial work himself.

What I can say though is if you're keen on a 300+L boiler personally I'd be looking at a 6" rig or bigger. I run a very basic 6" 5 plate with packed section and for neutral I don't run much faster than 4L/h. On a 300L charge @ 30% that's a bloody long run even on a 6" rig.

On a 300L boiler with a full charge of 30% ready for a neutral run I'd like to see no more than a 6hour run, this equates to a throughput demand of 15L/h. You're going to need an 8" rig minimum to pull numbers like that.

I have a 120L boiler on a 6" rig and that's a perfect combo for time and effort. I try to keep my EtOH charge down to 20-25L max to keep my run times reasonable to maintain a good home life balance.

So to calculate your still needs...start at the end and work your way back.

Once you know how much you want to make and over what time period you want to make it in the rest becomes fairly straight forward.

Sweet dreams.

Cheers,

Mech.

Myles

@TheMechWarrior you just reinforced what @punkin said on an earlier thread about there being a few 380/8" rigs running just fine. =D>

I think yours is the right approach. Think about run time first and work backwards. I can understand the desire to put a big column on a small boiler for a fast run time, but I am sure there is a point where it would be unworkable. Don't know where that would be though.

Take a 50 litre boiler as an example. It powers a 4" ok but probably not a 6". Jump ahead to that 8" column and it works fine on a 380 and I am sure it would also work on a 300. Would a 200 be just a step too far?

I suppose the real issue isn't actually the boiler volume. It is more likely to be the power input that you have configured for that boiler size, and if it can generate sufficient vapour to keep the column stable.