The TTB and most state governmental agencies are only interested in collecting tax revenue and/or you violating state alcohol distribution law (competing with entities they want to protect). They don't really care if you harm customers -- although that may be bad for your business ;)
Don't take this as encouragement to stretch or violate rules/laws. The reason our industry exists is for people who care about such things. That market might be smaller than I'd like, but it is what it is.
Asked the doctor at Kentucky (aus) why the steak he served me from his distillery restaurant was described in the menu as having wild picked mushrooms and was served with farmed agaricus buttons once.
Once pinned down he claimed artistic license for his false advertising.
That thing is tiny! But I guess when you're already dealing with 95% GNS, it doesn't have to be all that big... its just a quick redistillillation so you can say it's made in-house.
@grim said:
There is an older thread where we talked about this design a little bit. A small amount of alcohol is lost as vapor along with any heads.
Hi mate, I've searched for the old threads, but can't find them. Any chance you could link to them as this concept is something I am also interested in
I'm still thinking on this... I've being trying to put one together in my head using off the shelf SD parts. The bottom end is easy enough it's the heads take off that I'm struggling with.
There is a single pass boiler (not reboiler), which vaporizes near 100% of the feed, injecting that vapor into the column, which operates like. thumper. There are no plates in the column.
Vapor moves up into the condenser, gets condensed, and flows BACK INTO THE "column". You can see the drain located about one quarter/third from the left on the top condenser. It flows to the bottom of the column.
Column liquid volume is controlled by the level sensor, which operates the discharge valve. There are two pumps, a feed pump, and a discharge pump.
There is a temperature probe on the vapor vent from the top condenser (port at the top, far end). There is a PID (visible ABB unit) that controls the water flow through that top condenser using the vapor vent temp as process input. The set point controls the amount of input that's removed as vapor.
The discharge pump drains from the bottom of the column, through the heat exchanger, out.
Everything in the "distillation" stream is product, there are no bottoms (as this is GNS), the only thing removed is a very small amount of "heads" as vapor.
I guess what I dont understand is how they are removing the heads vapor. It appears to be venting out via the fire arrestor, but how does that work? Is the temp in the condenser kept at say 173°f to allow for the etoh the condense but the heads to remain a vapor?
Yep, exactly. You will lose some ethanol as vapor in order to allow some of the more volatile compounds to vent.
Making a parallel to batch distillation - pre heads or first heads, you always get those “uncondensable” aromas wafting out (if you smell it, it’s getting released as vapor) - that’s essentially what’s happening here, but as a continuous process.
You can replicate this process as batch. Load the still with gns. Heat. Take off a little bit as heads. Stop distilling. Cool the boiler and what remains in the kettle is your finished product.
So in the absence of perfect temp control could a heads trap (like mentioned about halfway down this page) be used to take off the heads as a liquid instead of venting them?
Yeah, I'm trying to work out a few things too including:
Reboiler HX appears to be a 4" x 750mm shell in tube
column
Diameter? looks to be about 8"
Length? about 1m?
Plate type: sieve vs bubblecaps?
plate count: 4?
how do the level sensors control the operation of the unit?
condensor
looks like a 4" x 1m long
How does it work to take off heads? Are they drawn off via the vent? As there's a flame arrestor I don't think so as it'd also need a condenser for the heads take off
Is the line from the bottom of the condenser to close to the bottom of the column the condensed hearts?
Pumps
What would be the specs of the 2 pumps used for feed in and product out?
Do they run continuous or does the level sensor(s) turn it on/off?
I think they'd need to be ATEX/IECEX = $$$
Could double diaphram pneumatic pumps be used instead of electric?
At 2gpm that comes to 462lph! 96% GNS has a boiling point around 78C so the Preheat HX & reboiler don't have as much work to do compared to running a 10% wash which needs to get to about 93C. So trying to work out what I could do with my available power
@grim said:
One of my favorite tests was trying to build a continuous gin still off the vapor feed. Take a feed from a barrel of GNS and a barrel of water. Boil them off at the desired ABV. Push that vapor through a set of two baskets (with a valve to direct the vapor feed). Turn that baby on and just keep changing baskets until your swimming pool is full of gin.
I didn't realize the ramifications up this until just now, but this is a super intriguing idea
This same "venting" method is used on vendome beer columns and people complain about the heads still in the spirit.
I don't think we are quite talking about the same thing.
My thoughts are geared toward how we do it. The difference now being only that rather than pulling product off as liquid from the very top plate, we at this point would rather pull product off of the next plate down and therefore utilize the top plate as a heads trap that allows heads to vent off of the top of the spirit column (past the dephlegmator) to be condensed by the heads condenser.
So far the feedback in doing this has shown to further assist in making a more precise on the fly heads cut.
@Smaug said:
So far the feedback in doing this has shown to further assist in making a more precise on the fly heads cut.
And having said that, if the 4 plate spirit column is for bourbon only, we'll be putting a plate disabler system on. The dedicated bourbon only still only needs 2 plates if you want to go straight into the barrel at an ideal barreling proof. 4 plates allows for finished spirit to come off in the high 150s. The reflux enriches the lower plates too much.
@Smaug, I see what you're saying. What I'm thinking is a cross between the GNS continuous and the LM function of the spirit side of your continuous... like a boka but you're taking off the heads at the LM port and your good spirit out of the bottom of the column.
@Bolverk said:
Smaug, I see what you're saying. What I'm thinking is a cross between the GNS continuous and the LM function of the spirit side of your continuous... like a boka but you're taking off the heads at the LM port and your good spirit out of the bottom of the column.
Got it.
I believe letting heads vent past the dephlegmator as vapor and using the very top plate as an assistant will work best,,,,,in my mind. I don't have any analysis other than anecdotal comments from the gang in Bastrop.
@grim said:
The operating principal is pretty simple
Thank mate. I'd typed my queries the night before I Posted, so didn't see your response.
Wondering what your thoughts are re adding a condenser onto the heads vapour out? I'm not keen on vapour escaping to the environment & don't think the authorities here would be either. What temp would they be looking for in the vapour out to regulate the condenser water flow?
Also what do you think about using small double diaphram pumps in this application such as these
Verderair PURE @ Verder Liquids
@crozdog , I think that's how @Smaug is recommending doing it. Standard CM upper configuration but the dephleg is tuned to only let heads past and then condensed in the product condenser.
@Bolverk said:
Croz, I think that's how Smaug is recommending doing it. Standard CM upper configuration but the dephleg is tuned to only let heads past and then condensed in the product condenser.
Yessir. Definitely helps when calculating actual processing speed.
Steve Todee in Bastrop has settled in on 2L of heads collection for every 100 gallons of beer as an example. Not saying this is "thee" be all concluded ratio btw. It's going to depend on everyone's sensory awareness perception.
As much heads as a heads cutter cuts if a heads cutter could cut heads.
In high quality neutral, a few parts per million. Looking at the spec sheet from my last order of fcc/usp grade neutral, it is 20 parts per million (sum of all volatile organics, including methanol). So in 50 gallons, that would be about 375-400ml. You can't remove all of it, since not all of it is more volatile, or may form azeotropes, etc.
Comments
The TTB and most state governmental agencies are only interested in collecting tax revenue and/or you violating state alcohol distribution law (competing with entities they want to protect). They don't really care if you harm customers -- although that may be bad for your business ;)
Good to know
Don't take this as encouragement to stretch or violate rules/laws. The reason our industry exists is for people who care about such things. That market might be smaller than I'd like, but it is what it is.
Not taken that way at all... maybe I should have said the more you know
Asked the doctor at Kentucky (aus) why the steak he served me from his distillery restaurant was described in the menu as having wild picked mushrooms and was served with farmed agaricus buttons once.
Once pinned down he claimed artistic license for his false advertising.
ShouldHavePickedUpOnTheWarningSignPunkin
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
Photos of the Vendome GNS still in real life: Vendome Continuous GNS Still (New!!) @ ADI Forums
That thing is tiny! But I guess when you're already dealing with 95% GNS, it doesn't have to be all that big... its just a quick redistillillation so you can say it's made in-house.
That seems,,,,,,hilarious.
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
Hi mate, I've searched for the old threads, but can't find them. Any chance you could link to them as this concept is something I am also interested in
I'm still thinking on this... I've being trying to put one together in my head using off the shelf SD parts. The bottom end is easy enough it's the heads take off that I'm struggling with.
The operating principal is pretty simple:
Everything in the "distillation" stream is product, there are no bottoms (as this is GNS), the only thing removed is a very small amount of "heads" as vapor.
That makes sense, thank you
I guess what I dont understand is how they are removing the heads vapor. It appears to be venting out via the fire arrestor, but how does that work? Is the temp in the condenser kept at say 173°f to allow for the etoh the condense but the heads to remain a vapor?
Yep, exactly. You will lose some ethanol as vapor in order to allow some of the more volatile compounds to vent.
Making a parallel to batch distillation - pre heads or first heads, you always get those “uncondensable” aromas wafting out (if you smell it, it’s getting released as vapor) - that’s essentially what’s happening here, but as a continuous process.
You can replicate this process as batch. Load the still with gns. Heat. Take off a little bit as heads. Stop distilling. Cool the boiler and what remains in the kettle is your finished product.
Ah that makes perfect sense.
So in the absence of perfect temp control could a heads trap (like mentioned about halfway down this page) be used to take off the heads as a liquid instead of venting them?
Continuous Column Stripping Plates
I feel "venting" heads as a vapor will provide the best method.
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
Curious, why?
This same "venting" method is used on vendome beer columns and people complain about the heads still in the spirit.
Yeah, I'm trying to work out a few things too including:
Reboiler HX appears to be a 4" x 750mm shell in tube
column
condensor
Pumps
At 2gpm that comes to 462lph! 96% GNS has a boiling point around 78C so the Preheat HX & reboiler don't have as much work to do compared to running a 10% wash which needs to get to about 93C. So trying to work out what I could do with my available power
I didn't realize the ramifications up this until just now, but this is a super intriguing idea
I don't think we are quite talking about the same thing.
My thoughts are geared toward how we do it. The difference now being only that rather than pulling product off as liquid from the very top plate, we at this point would rather pull product off of the next plate down and therefore utilize the top plate as a heads trap that allows heads to vent off of the top of the spirit column (past the dephlegmator) to be condensed by the heads condenser.
So far the feedback in doing this has shown to further assist in making a more precise on the fly heads cut.
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
And having said that, if the 4 plate spirit column is for bourbon only, we'll be putting a plate disabler system on. The dedicated bourbon only still only needs 2 plates if you want to go straight into the barrel at an ideal barreling proof. 4 plates allows for finished spirit to come off in the high 150s. The reflux enriches the lower plates too much.
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
@Smaug, I see what you're saying. What I'm thinking is a cross between the GNS continuous and the LM function of the spirit side of your continuous... like a boka but you're taking off the heads at the LM port and your good spirit out of the bottom of the column.
Got it.
I believe letting heads vent past the dephlegmator as vapor and using the very top plate as an assistant will work best,,,,,in my mind. I don't have any analysis other than anecdotal comments from the gang in Bastrop.
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
Thank mate. I'd typed my queries the night before I Posted, so didn't see your response.
Wondering what your thoughts are re adding a condenser onto the heads vapour out? I'm not keen on vapour escaping to the environment & don't think the authorities here would be either. What temp would they be looking for in the vapour out to regulate the condenser water flow?
Also what do you think about using small double diaphram pumps in this application such as these Verderair PURE @ Verder Liquids
Nice thing about the heads condenser is you would at least have some visual idea of the loss/take off rate.
As vapor, you have really no idea - that's one of the reasons I thought this was really just a faker maker.
@crozdog , I think that's how @Smaug is recommending doing it. Standard CM upper configuration but the dephleg is tuned to only let heads past and then condensed in the product condenser.
Yessir. Definitely helps when calculating actual processing speed.
Steve Todee in Bastrop has settled in on 2L of heads collection for every 100 gallons of beer as an example. Not saying this is "thee" be all concluded ratio btw. It's going to depend on everyone's sensory awareness perception.
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
I'm curious... what's the percentage of heads still in GNS?
As much heads as a heads cutter cuts if a heads cutter could cut heads.
In high quality neutral, a few parts per million. Looking at the spec sheet from my last order of fcc/usp grade neutral, it is 20 parts per million (sum of all volatile organics, including methanol). So in 50 gallons, that would be about 375-400ml. You can't remove all of it, since not all of it is more volatile, or may form azeotropes, etc.
Thanks, that's far less than I expected
@grim is this more or less that you had in mind for the continuous gin still?