Fats in the Pool?

edited February 22 in Recipes

Probably aimed mostly @grim.

Is there any evidence to suggest that having fats in the kettle (in this instance a petchuga styled chicken in the vapor path or in the kettle charge) would have a reactive relationship with heads constituents in such a way that it would sequester perceived heads?

Here is the dude's assertion:

About serious cabbage soup.

My colleague carried out a laboratory analysis of a simple distilled sugar mash with a meat composition and vegetable oil IN ONE TIME WITHOUT SELECTING THE FIRST DROPS.

  • Aldehydes 68.1 mg/dm3 (norm – 10-350)
  • Ketones (acetone) 0.5 mg/dm3 (norm – 0.1-2.34)
  • Esters 337.5 mg/dm3 (norm - 10/50 -1500)
  • Methanol 0.0005% vol. (norm – 0.05)
  • Higher alcohols (fusel oils - 1658.6 mg/dm3 (norm - 500-4000/6000)

THINK: IN ONE TIME WITHOUT SELECTING THE FIRST DROPS! These are impressive results that are better than the results of double or triple distillation.

The colleague promised to continue to conduct comparative analyzes on oil seeds and meat products. There is a suspicion that the distillate is purified not only by fats, but also by proteins. He must find out.

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  • edited February 22

    This is what happens to me when i have too many brownies.

    Cock ale @ Wikipedia

    I've made this, and mulled wine and plenty more from this era.

    Take eight Gallons of Ale; take a Cock and boil him well; then take four pounds of Raisins of the Sun well stoned, two or three Nutmegs, three or four flakes of Mace, half a pound of Dates; beat these all in a Mortar, and put to them two quarts of the best Sack; and when the Ale hath done working, put these in, and stop it close six or seven days, and then bottle it, and a month after you may drink it.

    Not the nitrate one below though.

    ‘A Provocative Drink’: Making a Rooster-Infused Early Modern Ale @ braciatrix

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  • The results appear to be within the normal ranges quoted apart from methanol which you'd expect very little of from a sugar wash.

    The presence of fats can lead to saponification, which IMO is something you don't want as it'll give the product a soapy taste / texture.

  • edited February 22

    Both methanol and ethanol will react with long chain fatty acids found in meat or vegetables to form the precursors of diesel fuel (FAME/FAEE) - basically just long chain esters. They don't all come across as heads products, the longer chain stuff smears across hearts, tails, and beyond.

    I could see locking up some methanol in longer-chain esters, and being able to cut that out as tails.

    The protein stuff, that stumps me. I need to study aldehyde chemistry more, aldehydes will react with proteins and amino acids.

    Stuff like:

    Understanding interactions among aldehyde compounds and porcine myofibrillar proteins by spectroscopy and molecular dynamics simulations @ ScienceDirect

    Understanding interactions among aldehyde compounds and porcine myofibrillar proteins by spectroscopy and molecular dynamics simulations

    porcine myofibrillar proteins = pork meat

    Among flavour compounds, aldehydes have a significant role in flavour development of meat and meat products [9], [10]. Some studies describe the influences of aldehyde characteristics (such as structure and concentration) on their interactions with protein, and some investigations concluded that aldehydes react with amino acid residues of proteins via irreversible covalent binding [20], [21]. Other studies reported that hydrophobic interactions were the predominant force responsible for the interactions among proteins and aldehydes [22]. Based on these studies, both reversible and irreversible binding modes appear to be the major contributors to the interaction among proteins and aldehydes, depending on the specific chemistry and structure of the interacting molecules. Nevertheless, information on the conformational changes that occur in MPs upon aldehyde binding remains limited, and the mechanisms of aldehydes binding to MPs remain unexplored.

  • So @grim, do you think there is a chance the any proteins in the pool can have a covalent bond with any of the less desirable constituents there by leaving unwanted stuff in the kettle?

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • edited February 23

    Beyond my pay grade, call in the chemists.

    But yeah, I'd guess that the volatility of these things is lower than the aldehydes themselves, allowing them to be left behind in the stillage.

  • Worth noting, on-grain distilled stillage, especially corn/rye vs. barley, has a significant amount of amino acids, proteins, and fats, even without the chicken.

    A sugar wash, cleared, is going to have significantly less, if any.

    If yeast are being distilled, they'll spill out all of their goodness (and badness) into the soup pretty quickly.

    Hell, I've always thought corn stillage smelled like tomato soup or stew. Meaty is often how people describe stillage when you distill with yeast (on lees).

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