How can I improve my runtimes?

Moonshine

This discussion was created from comments split from: Welcome to our Beginner's Talk Category!.

Deuce67

What can i do to improve my run times, I have a good drip going but man it takes a long time to finish my run. I have a 3"column still with a 15 gallon keg for the boiler and about 36 inch of packing running a 5 gallon ujsm ..

TheMechWarrior

Run times are driven by column diameter while purity is driven by height.

I oversimplify it but in essence you need a wider column.

CothermanDistilling

buy a dash-2.... you will not be sorry with the speed...

FloridaCracker

Or, depending on where you live, go to a 5" column. Really improve your speeds.

punkin

A 3" column should run at 3-4l/hr when properly designed and run after charging with stripped low wines. There's nothing slow about that in a home setting, as a commercial enterprise you'd obviously want better.

What is your target product and what total run time would you like on your keg boiler? Give us that information and we can work on your current design or suggest a new one.

Ahh, rereading i see UJSM. Packing not needed, pot still or plated column are the best options. A 3' potstill should run at about 3-4l/hr for a spirit run after stripping and charging with a mix of low wines and wash. A 4" plated still will do about the same speed without the need to strip, so a single pass. A 5" will do about twice that if you have the power to spare because of the wider diameter and the procaps.

Fiji_Spirits

Guys, I could use some problem solving in this area based on the numbers you are throwing out.

I'm inputting 4500W to a 13 Gallon milk keg into a 4" perf plated column. Best flow I can get and maintain anything between 80-90%ABV+ is about 2L/hr on the strip run and 1.5/hr on the spirit run (times are after 45 min heatup time).

what would be causing the slowness here? could my perforations be too small? maybe my (actual) power input is too low? something else?

I'm adding three more plates of procaps to the rig and upping the element to 5500W and a bigger reflux condensor in the hopes of raising purity and increasing output.

Any ideas why my setup is so slow?

FloridaCracker

How many plates?

popcorn

more power will equal more speed

CothermanDistilling

more plates will allow you to run faster (less dephleg water) and not lose strength...

Fiji_Spirits

well, I swapped out my heat element today and discovered it was rated at 5500 Watts. who knows what it was actually putting out. I think it was under performing. In any event a brand new 5500w Camco low watt density wavy type has been installed. Then I discovered that ALL 3of the SSR's i ordered to replace my burned one are the wrong type. great. now to wait for another month to get some!

My still is a 4 plate perf-plate design.

Is a perf plate as fast as a procap plate in 4"? I'm wondering how to set up the new plates. I'll have 3 procaps and 4 perfs to configure. what order should I do it?

I had planned to run 2 procaps at the bottom then the perfs going up, and one procap under the deplegmator (upgrading to the longer super-deplegmator too)

I recalculated my flow rate on the spirit run and came up with 1.666l/hr at max heat input and 90% output. pretty dismal. Is my 80f cooling water limiting me here?

FloridaCracker

The perf plates should go on the top.

rossco

@Fiji_Spirits said: I had planned to run 2 procaps at the bottom then the perfs going up, and one procap under the deplegmator (upgrading to the longer super-deplegmator too)

I would run the plates this way. Maybe procaps at the bottom, top and the centre. The stability of the bubble caps will help keep the profile on the perforated plates stabilised. I think the end outcome has a lot to do with the reflux pool on the top plate, so I'd definitely use a bubble cap there. The extra control is important.

I use a mixture in various configurations and I really like the interaction that you get from intermixing them. However I don't use procaps, so the interaction may be different because they can handle more power, but how that will affect the perforated plates?

Conventional wisdom says perfs at the bottom then bubblecaps if memory serves.

CothermanDistilling

IMHO - either alternate perf and cap plates, or perfs at the bottom for easy cleaning (bottom get dirtiest)

Smaug

@CothermanDistilling said: IMHO - either alternate perf and cap plates, or perfs at the bottom for easy cleaning (bottom get dirtiest)

Yeah, particularly with the rum washes.

razerhawg

Hopefully it's OK to sidetrack this post? I have a 120 l pot and currently run a 4" column with 6 SD plates ( mainly a headroom issue ). I have 2 more plates and a 2' section that I am going to pack with SS scrubbies. My main goal is higher proof / cleaner products ( I'm a vodka guy and fixing to work on some gin ). Currently I run about 3.8 kW and can get 4 l per hour pretty steady. My question is with the larger product condenser and reflux condenser could I push more power or do I just need a larger column? One other question, in a note post someone had placed their packed column ABOVE their RC, is that the correct location?

Smaug

Packing above the RC is nothing more than catylizer material used to sequester sulfides.

Unless you are charging the kettle with a higher abv, I don't see you doing much better than 5 liters an hour.

At 4L per hour you are already doing pretty good as the system has a real sweet spot at 3 liters per hour.

CothermanDistilling

more plates will allow you to run less RC water, which means less reflux, which means more product... if you want good neutral, add two more and then add two more after that... ;-)

razerhawg

@CothermanDistilling, back when I first set this up Loyd said a packed section would do more than plates...but you're saying to just keep stacking tee's? Thanks in advance, you guys are full of good information!

FloridaCracker

Keep the plates/packing below the RC and remember that all packings are not created equal.

grim

My 2 cents, which aren't even worth 2 cents. Probably costing you money to read my drivel.

If you can achieve a HETP lower than the plate spacing, without dealing with "matching issues" (flooding, entrainment, etc) than it's in your favor - realizing that ...

The operating parameters of both types of setups are different, and when you combine the two, you reduce the overall operating parameter range. Imagine overlapping two different shapes, your new operating range is the intersection of the shapes, and sometimes a much smaller shape.

I make no claims to understand how to match these, but I've played around enough to know that trying to combine two totally different operating ranges results in a combined setup that doesn't work at all, or goes backwards in terms of separation efficiency, so you can't just make a broad assumption about combining two different systems.

Adding plates of an identical nature, or more packing of an identical nature, is going to give you a much more predictable outcome.

FloridaCracker

OK, so using your theory I would like for you to give me your take on my rig as well. When doing neutrals I run 4 ProCap plates and then approximately 150mm of tightly packed SS scrubies right above. In my RC I have a few strands of SS in each of the passages.

What do you see with that setup?

TheMechWarrior

@FloridaCracker do you have the head space to test any theory tossed at you? Having run 4 plates and a packed section vs 5 plates and a packed section I can tell you what works better. But that should be obvious.

Are you asking @grim to suggest which of your two rectification methods you should look to replicate in preference to the other? Again the answer is self evident. If all you want is neutral, lose the plates and add more packed section.

The ultimate neutral rig is a VM configuration, it's like owning an automatic Bentley...luxurious and easy to drive.

Please clarify the question.

Cheers,

Mech.

Smaug

Being able to prove or disprove in practice was one of the key elements that really got the ball rolling for the StillDragon concept of modular pieces.

FloridaCracker

Sorry, I guess my questioning was kinda vague.

The reason I run my rig like I described is because I couldn't get a really long 5" spool to pack. SD just didn't make them. Right now I am packing my top T (no plate in that one) because that is all that I have. When I run rum or whiskey I just take the packing out, easy peasy. Luckily I only make the neutral for my wife and a run lasts a long time. To her, the less the flavor the better as she mixes it and doesn't like the off flavors.

Lately I have been doing one stripping and two spirit runs on the neutral. At the end of the second spirit run there is no discernible smell or taste.

I guess I was just looking for feedback as to whether my two shapes are a circle and a square or a circle and an oval :))

grim

I have no idea, I told you it wasn't worth 2 cents. :)

grim

Here is an old chart that highlights the operating range boundaries. I just quickly edited it to overlay another example operating range that isn't specifically aligned to the first.

Again, this is just a rough approximation, but this is the challenge faced when combined two different distillation approaches in a single rig. In this example, the new operating range would be the area highlighted in red.

I'm just highlighting this as a consideration, is all. A SD rig, maybe a non-issue, because you can easily remove the packed section - so running with the combined rig, perhaps you adjust your method of operation to account for that. But, you can see, in those kinds of situations you can have mismatches that really start to cut into the sweet spot. For those who have tried to do hybrid rigs, and have the combined rig flooding, and your head is scratching, it's exactly this, the operating ranges are completely misaligned. The vapor speed and reflux rates that are ideal for one half of the hybrid are completely different from the other.

razerhawg

Florida, I've been doing one stripping and 1 spirit run, but I'm adding sodium carbonate to the strip and carbon filtering . On sugar runs I get no taste, but was hoping some additional plates and or packing I could get away from the carbon filtering. I'm showing 93% for most of my runs and was hoping to go ahead and get 96%.

FloridaCracker

I don't use carbon but do add the sodium bicarb to the strip a few days before the spirit run. Two runs sure would be easier.

grim

Why get away from carbon?

FloridaCracker

Used it back in the 90's and don't need the hassle at this point. If I can make a good spirit without it then it saves me a shitload of trouble.