200L Pot Belly Boiler Optimisation

Flex

Hi all,

I'm looking at purchasing the 200L pot belly boiler and was wondering if anyone has one setup already? I'm Interested to know which elements power it appropriately and what sort of run times people are experiencing? Ideally I will run a 4" column and would like to be able to charge 200L of 40% neutral and run it out in a day!

Thanks!

mikew

So 200l of 40% = 80l of neutral ... not going to happen on a 4 inch column in a day (8 hrs), thats 10l/hr Might be possible on a 6" rig and easily doable on 8"

I'm running a 100lt boiler + 4" column and i don't have the patience to run a 40l charge.. so will probably upgrade to a 6" column for faster run times.

TheMechWarrior

You are looking at a 8 to 10 hour run with a 6" column on a 200L boiler.
If that time doesn't bother you then 6" is the go, otherwise you'll be looking for an 8" rig.
The 4" is best left on a 50L boiler.
In my mind when I think 8" I think ~500L boiler and 12" for the 1000L.

Flex

Interesting, thanks. I was hoping to not upgrade my column too! Maybe it's worth doing though. my issue is that I have limited power available. Could I run a 6" column with three 20amp elements? Assuming I use gas for the heat up? Or could the elements handle The heat up to?

TheMechWarrior

6" column only needs about 15A for the spirit run and around 40A for the strip. So, 2 x 15A (3600W) elements is all you need. Just thinking, I only need to heat up a 100L tank, yeah, go for 3 elements for heat up. Due to the larger mass you may find you need 20A for the spirit run anyway.

grim

If you can't go a big enough diameter to bring that run time down, throw every damn watt you can at it to cut down the heat-up time to the minimum. You can always turn off elements or run them all on controllers and cut down the power once you get into the run.

Myles

Folks often start looking at this the wrong way. IMO you should decide on your preferred run time and then calculate backwards from there.

Max output is probably:

For 4" about 5 litres per hour, so 40 litres per 8 hour run. Bigger sizes I cant remember production rates, but hopefully someone has them handy.

From the 8 hour production rate, work back to the boiler charge volume, and from there to the power requirements for (a 1 hour?) warm up.

rossco

@TheMechWarrior said: The 4" is best left on a 50L boiler.

I recon that is too small. Better around 100 litres.

punkin

@Flex said: Interesting, thanks. I was hoping to not upgrade my column too! Maybe it's worth doing though. my issue is that I have limited power available. Could I run a 6" column with three 20amp elements? Assuming I use gas for the heat up? Or could the elements handle The heat up to?

Just from talking to you on the phone mate, i was sure you had only 2400 watt (10 amp) circuits available?

If you go with the popular theory then you need about 80 watts per litre for a 1hr heatup. Assuming a 40l charge of course you can lessen that a little. 200 x 80 = 16,000 watts / 3 elements = 5300 watts per element. In this case if you do have three 20 amp circuits available i don't think you're going to be too far off the mark with 3 x 4800 watters. 14,400 watts.

As far as takeoff rates, assuming you are going to take an hour and a half or more to take slow heads, an hour for heatup, a total charge of 86 l of alcohol at 90% abv takeoff and using the run speed calculator i sent you,

5" procap column at 7 l an hour would take 13 hours to pull hearts only

6" procap column at 12l hr would take 7.75 hrs for hearts only

8" propcap at 18l hr would take 5.3 hrs to pull hearts only

This is assuming that you use those output rates. This comes down to you expectations of quality etc.

Your other option if you want to save on initial equipment costs is to split the run over two days, by either using a full charge and covering the boiler overnight to conserve heat before starting up the next day, or by a half charge (remembering you need about 70l in the 200l boiler to cover elements) each day.

After all assuming 10% heads and 25% tails you are looking at 60l of 100% alcohol or over 200 bottles of 40% abv per run.

Flex

Thanks everyone, I am currently running 10amp elements butmi think I can now run 20amp circuits. Sounds like 8" is the way to go if I canmanage it Then! I'm assuming I could run an 8" column easily with three 20amp elements?

Does anyone have any experience with putting an in-line Gin basket after the column? Any advic. On how Much harder i would have to run the still?

punkin

Some of the guys who are running 8" columns will chip in shortly mate on general power levels for pulling hearts on vodka.

Clickeral

@punkin said: After all assuming 10% heads and 25% tails you are looking at 60l of 100% alcohol or over 200 bottles of 40% abv per run.

4 inch procap be good for what 5-6 L per hour??? normal caps are what 3-4 L per hour?

TA :D

punkin

yes mate, sounds about right

FloridaCracker

A 5" would probably be too small for you but I pulled about 8 liters an hour last night once I was into hearts and could have gone faster (stripping run). Just wanted to keep the ABV as high as possible and I shut it down at 90ABV. Using ProCaps. That would be 10 hours for you AFTER warm up AND fores AND heads. I spent one hour just pulling 600ml of fores and at least 30 minutes pulling heads. My boiler is only 50 liters but I am only using one 5500w element and never have it over 80% after warmup.

Would be a LONG day for you but doable. A 6" would be that much faster, probably double what you would get with a 4". Also, 80 liters of liquor is an ass ton unless you are selling it. My wife would have a hard time putting away that much :D

grim

(we're talking commercial right? not that you hate your liver?)

My worthless 2 cents says to go 8" minimum if you have any desire to work an 8 hour day and not be subjected to absolutely brutal 12+ hour or multi-day runs.

The price difference between the column sizes is absolutely minimal when you take into account the cost of labor. Don't play games like valuing your time at zero, because that means you don't have a sustainable business model.

Based on Punkin's numbers above, and the US's pitiful minimum wage of $7.25.

Labor cost per run 5" - 13h - $94.25 6" - 7.75h - $56.19 8" - 5.3h - $38.43

Assuming 1 run per week, going with a 5" column vs an 8" column will cost you $2,902.64 in additional hourly labor cost. Real world, fully burdened employee, it's closer to $5-6k depending on your region. You'll make that back in 6 months with the larger column. You are talking about translating to a retail price of $1.50 higher per bottle as a result of the smaller column, none of which translates to additional margin for you.

vooharmy

I am wanting a 200l boiler for my 5" as i would like to run without stripping. If I was to keep with my current strip, strip,strip & spirit run protocol then 120L would be ample. If I was doing this for a job and not a hobby I would just buy a 12" and be done with it. It's fun to sit in the garage and tinker with my things every so often but if 12 hr days where the norm I would learn to hate it really quick! I choose to go 5" to cut down on run times, when your working 60+ hrs a week you start to value your time. I really like the idea of a 200L Baine Marie boiler depending on cost, maybe a 120L... Should get a quote off Punkin... must... save... penny's.... for.... copper...bling...

FloridaCracker

Same exact reason I went with the 5". Would love to have a 200l boiler since I make 26 gallon washes. Guess a 120 liter would work but the $$ difference is minimal.

Smaug

@grim said: (we're talking commercial right? not that you hate your liver?)

My worthless 2 cents says to go 8" minimum if you have any desire to work an 8 hour day and not be subjected to absolutely brutal 12+ hour or multi-day runs.

The price difference between the column sizes is absolutely minimal when you take into account the cost of labor. Don't play games like valuing your time at zero, because that means you don't have a sustainable business model.

Based on Punkin's numbers above, and the US's pitiful minimum wage of $7.25.

Labor cost per run 5" - 13h - $94.25 6" - 7.75h - $56.19 8" - 5.3h - $38.43

Assuming 1 run per week, going with a 5" column vs an 8" column will cost you $2,902.64 in additional hourly labor cost. Real world, fully burdened employee, it's closer to $5-6k depending on your region. You'll make that back in 6 months with the larger column. You are talking about translating to a retail price of $1.50 higher per bottle as a result of the smaller column, none of which translates to additional margin for you.

That's really what it boils down to. Distillation is all about economy of scale.

And in the scheme of things the still cost is minimal compared to all of the other expenditures needed to get the distillery moving to the black.

grim

Once you price a boiler and a chiller, Smaug starts to look like a really cheap date. :)

punkin

Yes, Flex is working on a business model for a startup.

Flex

Wow thanks! I guess what it boils Down too is that I can only Run three 20 amp elements so I need to figure out the biggest set up I can run on that. 8" is looking good right now but I am also wondering how much harder I would have to run it if I had a large Gin basket after the column? Has anyone had any experience with thermal losses there?

crozdog

IMHO, instead of running your gin head off the top of the column, direct the boiler output directly to the gin head. use a 3 way valve to direct the vapour path or have a separate connection in which case you'll need to turn off the column output - just ensure that you always have an open path to the atmosphere - cause we don't want to hear of any explosions

Myles

In practice with the 5" and bigger plates, if you run the column with the dephlegmator cooling switched off completely, are the plates active?
Is their enough natural reflux to keep them wet or do they dry out so the column behaves as if it were a straight through vapour path?

FloridaCracker

@Myles said: In practice with the 5" and bigger plates, if you run the column with the dephlegmator cooling switched off completely, are the plates active?
Is their enough natural reflux to keep them wet or do they dry out so the column behaves as if it were a straight through vapour path?

Oh, they are active. Just did this 2 days ago and wondered what would happen. I do have a packed column right below the dephleg and I'm sure that the dephleg just being there causes a certain amount of reflux whether there is water going through it or not.

I was pleasantly surprised by this and the parrot was pissing like a Russian race horse.

Myles

Thats interesting. The proposal for a secondary vapour path is in order then. If the plates were dry you might not need to bother. Plate disable valves are one option. A dedicated smaller gin still would be the ideal solution, but perhaps not achievable for some folks.

grim

I'd planned to drill weep holes in the plates before assembling the column, but completely forgot about it.

Wondering if that would be sufficient to drain off any passive reflux without a big impact operation.

No way I'm breaking down the column, ever. I could probably get far enough inside the boiler to drill a weep hole in the bottom plate, but thats about it.

Myles

Vapour bypass from 1 of the boiler secondary ports to a point above the dephlegmator? Might be sufficient to disable all the plates in one move. With a 2" open vapour path very little vapour might go through the column. Simple gate valve in the bypass route might be sufficient.

Unsensibel

There's some activity but not nearly as much as with reflux. Overall, you can strip with the RC empty

FloridaCracker

I have ProCaps and my column drains completely dry without any holes drilled

Flex

I like the idea of a secondary vapour path! Perhaps a valve at the bottom of the column diverting vapour straight to the condenser via a Gin basket. I like the idea of having the basket after the column as a means of ensuring clean spirit is infusing. perhaps time can be saved in stripping if it can go into the Gin Run at a lower quality... But the question remains, how much thermal losses are incurred running through a large offset Gin basket and how does that effect energy input during the run with a 200l boiler and 8" column? seems like the best way to figure this out is to have a crack And report back but I would rather not find myself in a situation where my still is hopelessly underpowered as I have power restrictions, the most I can run is 3 20 amp elements, 14,400 watts.

Myles

Just a moment @Flex. For gin, on the flavouring spirit run you should be charging the boiler with a previously prepared finished product. You might get away with charging with low wines but highly unlikely that you can run through a botanical basket on a strip run.

I would recomend charging with a diluted finished product that is then just picking up flavour from botanicals.