Why do you guys bother with tomato paste anymore? I understand that yeast nutrients were tough to find previously, but with the growth of the home brew business, extremely high quality nutrients are available very inexpensively.
Fermax, Fermaid K, DAP, etc. You can buy pounds of the stuff for less than 20 bucks, a couple clicks or a drive to the home brew shop on the weekend.
Likewise, all the old recipes that you find online that talk about adding fertilizer or miracle grow and all that nonsense, I am scratching my head wondering why all that still gets propagated around..
In my area the tomato paste is more expensive than a commensurate amount of nutes via Fermax. And we have a shitty beer culture here compared to so many areas.
@grim said:
Fermax, Fermaid K, DAP, etc. You can buy pounds of the stuff for less than 20 bucks, a couple clicks or a drive to the home brew shop on the weekend.
Where can you buy pounds of Fermaid K for less than 20 bucks?
GW Kent - $198 for 10kg ($9 per 1lb in bulk)
etc etc etc
If you want to stretch your dollar, use 1/2 the rec of fermaid k and 1/2 the rec of dap or lower cost yeast nutrient. If you want to get fancy, dose your nutrient in stages and save the cheap stuff for the last 1/3rd of fermentation. You can probably cut the cost of nutrients nearly in half.
Birdwatchers calls for 3 cups (24 ounces) of tomato paste for 80 liters wash (21 gallons). That's like $2 or so for 21 gallons (at $0.50usd a can, 4 cans), which gives you a cost of about 9.5 cents per gallon.
Cost for 500 gallons of wash using tomato paste - $47.50 (shopping at Walmart, I'm not talking about the fancy stuff here).
Cost for 500 gallons of wash using Fermaid K - ~$16.00
So not only are you paying nearly triple, you are using a substandard yeast nutrient.
Using 50:50 Fermaid:DAP is very common in the mead community, they usually stagger nutrient additions too. They typically aim for an incredibly clean (sugar-based) wash and stagger nutrients to reduce yeast stress and keep the wash clean.
Always wondered why the neutral sugar guys didn't just use a staggered nutrient mead protocol.
Agreed, as a pro brewer/yeast manager, it is amazing to me that tpw is still so widespread.
It seems to me, that like homebrewing beer, most hobbyists pay far too much attention to equipment and far too little to yeast and fermentation. Lower gravity washes with enough nutrient and reasonable ferm temperatures could yield more high quality spirit per unit volume than an 11% tpw wash @ 90F just because you are eliminating most of the high alcohols and fusel oils (heads...and some tails) during fermentation which means your yeast is making more delicious ethanol by percentage if you just feed and treat it correctly v. cranking out as high an abv wash as possible. /end rant.
Cliff notes: from a brewers perspective, distillation is about separation: If one makes a wash clean and the yeast is treated within spec (temp, osmotic stress via wort gravity, and alcohol) you may actually get a better clean, tasty final yield just because you had less bad stuff (ie heads/tails) to remove in the first place.
Guess I always just bought into the fact that tomato paste was "natural" and was somehow better for the yeast. Just bought a bag of Fermax and will use that from now on.
I figure tomato paste use is a leftover strategy from a previous time when formulated nutes were much harder to source and when distillers looked over their shoulders far more frequently.
After reading the above words of wisdom regarding nutrients I've just purchased some Fermaid A.
What I didnt notice untill just now is that the label states to add to wash 1/3rd into the ferment. Will this be Ok for the TPW (minus the TP) yeast. Or can I just chuck it in at the begining?
AU thoughts- In my opinion, the reason TPW is used so much is that we purchase all the ingredients from any supermarket at any time and it works.
Once we go from beginners to "informed" then is fair easier to know what to look for and what is value when sourcing supplies. eg @punkin's DAP is an example 500gm under $10 (plus postage) , one ebay seller may be at least $29, but small packs are plain rip off's.
We do have limited access to home brew shops that tend to be priced high for decent yeast and such, they generally all flog turbo yeasts for distillers. Shop online and the postage is(or can be) a killer, bulky stuff like grain is almost pick up only, same as liquid malt etc.
I personally drove 6 hrs round trip for supplies valued at $400, postage was over $150.
I do drift away from TPW, but when I just want to put a neutral wash down, and I don't have supplies, the the supermarket is my go to place any day and after hours.
I know what you mean @fadge , Joe White Maltings do their export pilsner malt about 3 km's from my house. But they won't sell to me unless i buy tonnes at a time. So it ships 1150 km to Bintani's in Melbourne sell it to me and then ship it 1150 km's back again.
The shipping is greater than the cost of the malt.
@punkin said:
The shipping is greater than the cost of the malt.
Such is life for most things out here on the far side of BFE too. We call it the paradise tax. Fortunately a local brewery buys malt by the container-load and is willing to sell to homebrewers in 100# lots - BYO container. The head brewer there is a homebrewer gone pro. Specialty malts are a tougher buy though.
Comments
Used it - never got problems. We cannot get any other tomato paste here, they all have traces of salt.
StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area
+1 all TP has salt, used normal and low salt without issues.
Has never affected my washes.
Why do you guys bother with tomato paste anymore? I understand that yeast nutrients were tough to find previously, but with the growth of the home brew business, extremely high quality nutrients are available very inexpensively.
Fermax, Fermaid K, DAP, etc. You can buy pounds of the stuff for less than 20 bucks, a couple clicks or a drive to the home brew shop on the weekend.
Likewise, all the old recipes that you find online that talk about adding fertilizer or miracle grow and all that nonsense, I am scratching my head wondering why all that still gets propagated around..
+1 @grim.
In my area the tomato paste is more expensive than a commensurate amount of nutes via Fermax. And we have a shitty beer culture here compared to so many areas.
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
Where can you buy pounds of Fermaid K for less than 20 bucks?
I'm more like I am now than I was before.
Morebeer - $19.99 for 500g
Adventures in Homebrewing - $14.75 for 1lb
Beverage People - $15.99 for 1lb
Brew and Wine Supply - $15.99 for 1lb
NY Brew Supply - $14.99 for 1lb
GW Kent - $198 for 10kg ($9 per 1lb in bulk) etc etc etc
If you want to stretch your dollar, use 1/2 the rec of fermaid k and 1/2 the rec of dap or lower cost yeast nutrient. If you want to get fancy, dose your nutrient in stages and save the cheap stuff for the last 1/3rd of fermentation. You can probably cut the cost of nutrients nearly in half.
Birdwatchers calls for 3 cups (24 ounces) of tomato paste for 80 liters wash (21 gallons). That's like $2 or so for 21 gallons (at $0.50usd a can, 4 cans), which gives you a cost of about 9.5 cents per gallon.
Cost for 500 gallons of wash using tomato paste - $47.50 (shopping at Walmart, I'm not talking about the fancy stuff here).
Cost for 500 gallons of wash using Fermaid K - ~$16.00
So not only are you paying nearly triple, you are using a substandard yeast nutrient.
Yes my point.
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
Using 50:50 Fermaid:DAP is very common in the mead community, they usually stagger nutrient additions too. They typically aim for an incredibly clean (sugar-based) wash and stagger nutrients to reduce yeast stress and keep the wash clean.
Always wondered why the neutral sugar guys didn't just use a staggered nutrient mead protocol.
I'm dying for some good pasta now, just sayin'.
Ebay.
Fermax Yeast Nutrient 1lb
Thank you! That's what I was looking for.
I'm more like I am now than I was before.
Agreed, as a pro brewer/yeast manager, it is amazing to me that tpw is still so widespread.
It seems to me, that like homebrewing beer, most hobbyists pay far too much attention to equipment and far too little to yeast and fermentation. Lower gravity washes with enough nutrient and reasonable ferm temperatures could yield more high quality spirit per unit volume than an 11% tpw wash @ 90F just because you are eliminating most of the high alcohols and fusel oils (heads...and some tails) during fermentation which means your yeast is making more delicious ethanol by percentage if you just feed and treat it correctly v. cranking out as high an abv wash as possible. /end rant.
Cliff notes: from a brewers perspective, distillation is about separation: If one makes a wash clean and the yeast is treated within spec (temp, osmotic stress via wort gravity, and alcohol) you may actually get a better clean, tasty final yield just because you had less bad stuff (ie heads/tails) to remove in the first place.
DAP, Yeast Nutrient, 500gm Bag @ StillDragon Australia
Dap at $9.90 per 500gm for the Aussies.
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
Guess I always just bought into the fact that tomato paste was "natural" and was somehow better for the yeast. Just bought a bag of Fermax and will use that from now on.
Thanks for the tip.
I figure tomato paste use is a leftover strategy from a previous time when formulated nutes were much harder to source and when distillers looked over their shoulders far more frequently.
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
I just figured some guys like a pink wash... :))
I'm more like I am now than I was before.
Of course, if you have a garden full of tomatoes coming ripe all at the same time, it's a better use for them than letting the birds eat em up.
I'm more like I am now than I was before.
Have any of you guys got a recipe to share using yeast nutrient rather than tomato paste?
After reading the above words of wisdom regarding nutrients I've just purchased some Fermaid A.
What I didnt notice untill just now is that the label states to add to wash 1/3rd into the ferment. Will this be Ok for the TPW (minus the TP) yeast. Or can I just chuck it in at the begining?
Try wineos plain olé sugar wash or WPOSW for short
AU thoughts- In my opinion, the reason TPW is used so much is that we purchase all the ingredients from any supermarket at any time and it works.
Once we go from beginners to "informed" then is fair easier to know what to look for and what is value when sourcing supplies. eg @punkin's DAP is an example 500gm under $10 (plus postage) , one ebay seller may be at least $29, but small packs are plain rip off's.
We do have limited access to home brew shops that tend to be priced high for decent yeast and such, they generally all flog turbo yeasts for distillers. Shop online and the postage is(or can be) a killer, bulky stuff like grain is almost pick up only, same as liquid malt etc. I personally drove 6 hrs round trip for supplies valued at $400, postage was over $150.
I do drift away from TPW, but when I just want to put a neutral wash down, and I don't have supplies, the the supermarket is my go to place any day and after hours.
@kapea pink wash is pretty !
fadge
I know what you mean @fadge , Joe White Maltings do their export pilsner malt about 3 km's from my house. But they won't sell to me unless i buy tonnes at a time. So it ships 1150 km to Bintani's in Melbourne sell it to me and then ship it 1150 km's back again.
The shipping is greater than the cost of the malt.
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
Such is life for most things out here on the far side of BFE too. We call it the paradise tax. Fortunately a local brewery buys malt by the container-load and is willing to sell to homebrewers in 100# lots - BYO container. The head brewer there is a homebrewer gone pro. Specialty malts are a tougher buy though.
I'm more like I am now than I was before.