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4 inch Crystal Bok am I crazy or what?

Ordered parts from @Smaug yesterday with the thought of building some type of hybrid, 2 bubble plates or 2 perforated plates in conjunction with SPP condensed by a Bok top all out of glass. (except condenser tubing, valve, etc)

Read though the Loony bin and crazy ideas discussion so I know there is interest. So this adventure will be slow in it's evolution as I am hitting my busy time of the year for work which means on the road for weeks at a time.

Care to tell me I'm crazy or through out suggestions all welcome.

Let see where this will take us,
MOCS

The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

"I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

Comments

  • Yes, you are crazy.   
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    you should fit in very nicely here.
    
  • There is only 1 issue to be aware of. Odin has reported that SPP suffers problems with flooding when the boiler charge is too high ABV. With a double plate option this could be an issue for you.

    As for the rest - I do think you are crazy - if you are considering a slant plate Bok.

    Personally I feel that there are better options. If I were to build any of Alex's designs that would be my last choice. ;)

  • @Myles said: There is only 1 issue to be aware of. Odin has reported that SPP suffers problems with flooding when the boiler charge is too high ABV. With a double plate option this could be an issue for you.

    As for the rest - I do think you are crazy - if you are considering a slant plate Bok.

    Personally I feel that there are better options. If I were to build any of Alex's designs that would be my last choice. ;)

    Can you provide a link to Odin's finding?

    So what all glass design if you were to build one? keeping in mind whats available

    The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

    "I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

  • VM or CM, But I have to say that I am very curious to see how much positive behavior can be increased on the Boks. The community would be in your debt even if it means that Alex's design is further relegated to the shelf......No offense at all to Alex.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • So while I have read that Bok's are notoriously slow, then how do we explain the numbers Odin totes in the iStill 250 brochure?

    Collection rate 22% - 10% boiler charge: >9.5 liters per hour
    Collection rate 10% -  5% boiler charge: >5.0 liters per hour
    Collection rate  5% -  2% boiler charge: >2.0 liters per hour
    
    Distillation example:                    200 liters of 22% strong low wines
    Heat up, stabilization, fores:           1 hour and 18 minutes
    Column stabilization:                    43 minutes
    Production process:                      6 hours and 32 minutes
    Total time of distillation process:      8 hours and 33 minutes
    Results:                                 >42.5 liters at 95%
    

    "Maybe I'm missing something but I've never run a Bok, I looking into getting over my head here with a 4" design that it seems everyone wishes would just go away"

    The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

    "I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

  • I think you are crazy but in a good way. I admire you spirit in exploration/experimention. Kudos! I read somewhere a guy posting something like

    You bastards knew the answer all along and still sat back and watched me beat my head over and over trying to figure this out only to have them say, I knew that all along, you should have asked.

    How will anyone ever know if something is possible if it were not for the likes of those who ventured in head first and figured it out. Maybe along the way you will come up with something new, and then all will be saying, cool man, nice job! Good luck with your endeavors and keep posting as you go along regardless of what you decide to do. I'll be reading.

    Hooch :)>-

  • edited January 2014

    Now don't get me wrong. If you wish to use one of the LM designs that Alex put in the Bokabob stable, there are actually a few different options.

    My personal choice, and one that I think would work with the SD crystal components would be the version with a mushroom vapour / liquid splitter. You would still need to take your product line out through a stainless section - or were you intending to add an output into a glass section?

    The mushroom splitter could essentially be a modified plate. I have no hesitation in reproducing this here with all credit to Alex for publishing it in the 1st place. Brought up to date with a dephlegmator and crystal shell this would be my LM of choice.

    image

    I suspect I would modify the design so that it incorporated a collection cup below the plate, feeding a valve through the stainless column wall below the crystal section.

    As for Odin's istill you have to remember that this is a fully automated piece of kit. It is light years ahead of a conventional LM. What it does is to cycle the still on and off, until the entire column is saturated with virtually pure azeotrope (in both liquid and vapour phases) and THEN it starts producing product.

    My choice of Bok LM.jpg
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  • While I do contend Odin's iStill is light years ahead of running in automation he has not changed any of the given's only written a algorithm by which the take off valve and power modulation are controlled.

    This is achieved I believe by the monitoring three parameters; temperature of the vapor, pressure and power output. But isn't this in fact (with the exception of pressure) how we control manually?

    So why then can't it be achieved in a manual mode?

    I have read where he stated there are to many variables that come into play with cooling so I don't believe this is playing any factor other then setting it to condense the vapor at the max output.

    The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

    "I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

  • I have never managed to achieve output rates on an LM to compare with his. Even when stabilising for an extended period if you open the outlet valve too fast the product quality drops.

    All I can say is try it - and if you manage to achieve it then please tell us how you managed it.

    I suspect it is something to do with a large volume of liquid azeotrope that is supported in the column prior to him opening the product valve. He may have the column balanced on a knife edge of being completely flooded, and just about to puke liquid azeotrope, through the condenser.

  • Thanks Myles for all your input thus far, it means a lot to me and is helping get my head rapped around this endeavor.

    I do have a couple of questions for you, was your LM a Bok? And did/are you running a 4 inch? If so what column height as I planning on 48" and 10 to 12" for condensing.

    Thanks, MOCS

    The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

    "I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

  • edited January 2014

    I have run a Bok but the mushroom splitter version, not the slant plate. I fairly rapidly though switched to a combined head that incorporates both the VM and LM options with an offset reflux condenser.

    My column at the moment is a 3". For me this is a specific tool that I just use to produce neutral as feedstock for infused products.

    image

    At the moment if I want vodka to drink, it comes off the pot still. The intention in the future is that it will come off a short plated column. I don't like to drink azeotrope itself - that is used for other purposes - I like my vodka to have a slight residual flavour.

    column head.jpg
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  • I run a bok plate combo for making vodka occasionally. ABV is often slightly lower, but I recon it makes really nice vodka.

    Rossco

  • @rossco said: I run a bok plate combo for making vodka occasionally. ABV is often slightly lower, but I recon it makes really nice vodka.

    @rossco, can you tell me about your rig, size, how you run , etc.?

    Thanks,
    MOCS

    The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

    "I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

  • edited January 2014

    image

    The short answer is that if you use this configuration you will get less vodka at a lower ABV than the CD with a packed section. This is because with a bubbler a skilled operator can compensate for dips in ABV by adjusting the volume entering the RC. By monitoring the temperature differential between the top of the column and the boiler the tails can be compressed and even kept in the column. Bok has good heads/ tails compression but nowhere near what is achievable with the CD.

    Rossco

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  • Thanks for sharing @rossco

    The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

    "I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

  • All right boys the still no one wanted to see rear its ugly head will soon be on the horizon, @Smaug has let me know that my boiler is ready to ship. I've been a way from home most of the year and will have a narrow window in which I be home in the begining of October so I am hoping to get it all assembled and get in a test run before leaving for my last assignment for the year so I not going hold my breath.

    With that said the machining is complete, the double helix condensing coil is made, the large SPP is all done except for the hard part to finish cutting the 30 ft stands of springs made of .030 SS wire. The glass is all cut and ends flamed hardened and delivered so as soon as I get it assembled I start posting some pics.

    It's been a long time in coming/waiting for me and I'm so excited I could almost piss myself! (wait did I just really say that) :-t What I ment to say is I haven't ran a drop since last January so I'm ready to get back in the saddle damn it.

    Now can anyone answer some questions on the 200L boiler, while Smaug's new site is pretty, shiney and new, I can't seem to find the boiler info I'm looking for. Is the boiler shipped with end plates w/clamps covering all of the ports, the photo's seem to indicate this but I am unsure? I seem to remember reading on the old site something about the drain port but can't remember if it came with a valve or if I need to order one? Also I thought I read something about CIP but not quite sure what is included or how this function is configured or if it requires any other parts.

    I plan on being able to convert my design and run as a CM for comparision data so I need to order a 4 inch dephleg, my cooling water will be managed at 70 F so the question is should I go with the standard or super.

    Thanks for your interest, hopefully she'll run as good as I think she will (9 to 10L per hour) but only running will tell.

    MOCS

    The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

    "I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

  • Also need @Moonshine chime in, on this post it is say's answered not sure why it says this. I also can not get rid of this banner; You've asked questions that now have answers. Make sure you accept/reject the answers. could you please hav a look at it for me?

    Thanks,

    MOCS

    The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

    "I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

  • edited September 2014

    @Manofconstantsorrow said: Also need Moonshine chime in, on this post it is say's answered not sure why it says this. I also can not get rid of this banner; You've asked questions that now have answers. Make sure you accept/reject the answers. could you please hav a look at it for me?

    I've reverted this back to a normal discussion now as it's not really a question that can be answered. Our "Q&A" function is for posting a question that looks for an answer, so that replies can be voted "accepted" or "rejected", with the best reply put on top for easy find.

    Your Place to be >>> www.StillDragon.org <<< Home of the StillDragon® Community Forum

  • Thanks Moonshine, A+ brother! ^:)^

    The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

    "I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

  • Hi MOCS, that size boiler and from that factory does include the end caps and clamps on every ferrule opening. No valves are included.
    If you have plenty of cool water then the standard dephleg will be fine.
    With the big manway and a garden hose you probably don't need a CIP solution for your boiler.

    9 to 10 L/H with a 4" column is a lofty goal.

  • edited September 2014

    I plan on being able to convert my design and run as a CM for comparision data so I need to order a 4 inch dephleg, my cooling water will be managed at 70 F so the question is should I go with the standard or super.

    I recon order the super because you can always turn it down if it is too much reflux. If you order the standard and its maxed then you are buggered. Rossco

  • @Drunkas was teasing for this to be in his box

    image

    I'm hoping to get one of these;

    image

    When my box show's up next week, my favorite barmaid from the Tilted Kilt.

    IMG_1027.jpg
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    The day you quit learning is the day you start dying!

    "I am an incurable gadgeteer, and I like enormously to set up a theory and then track down the consequences" Murray Leinster youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

  • edited September 2014

    Yeah, I like her tat.

    image

    barmaid.jpg
    600 x 800 - 82K
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