StillDragon® Community Forum

Welcome!

Be part of our community & join our international next generation forum now!

In this Discussion

Fermentation stopping, can't get good nutrients, need substitutes for chemicals... How to fix?

edited December 2013 in Recipes

OK, so if you read my introduction you know I'm in Fiji and operating with limited access to chemicals and supplies. As such I am forced to make do with alternative sources of needed chemicals to balance things out.

So I have a couple of washes that have stalled on me so far. the last one the PH got to about 3.2 then stalled at 1.05 SG. adding some baking soda did the trick and restarted things, if slowly, and it finished nicely to a dry sweet low wine. But I have read that by adding baking soda to the low wines I can create some ammonia compound upon distilling and come up with a blue colored wash that isnt good. So I have not distilled it. I added about 4 tbsp to a 6 gallon sugar wash.

1st question: Am I right to leave this wash out of the still?

second thing, one of the current washes have stalled as well. it's a bakers yeast sugar wash with boiled yeast as a nutrient. starting gravity was 1.1. currently sits at 1.05 with a PH of 3.2. I added some water and got a small amount of new bubbling, but it's still stuck.

2nd question: I don't have immediate access to most brewing chemicals. what can I use to raise the PH (mid run, as it starts pretty good at ~6-7) beyond adding water to the wash? should I just run it as it is?

3rd Question: So my reading suggests that I need to lower my initial sugar content to about 1.06 or so. I think this will move faster and not stall. Rather than boiling yeast to use a nutrient, I want to try a tomato paste wash. I found one that calls for epsom salts (birdwatchers sugar wash). will this small amount cause off flavors or create any ammonia?

Just doing 5-6 gallon washes with Thai or Fiji raw cane sugar.

Things I have found locally one way or another:

  • epsom salts
  • sodium bicarbonate
  • dextrose
  • bakers yeast
  • tomato sauce (not ketchup)
  • I have a BUNCH of turbo yeast (25#. last batch i boiled it for the nutrients then added half quantity to a champagne yeast sugar wash)
  • have some citric acid I brought with me, but lemons and limes are plentiful here,
  • have a little bentonite for settling
  • vitamin b tablets (expensive tho)
  • lime (for cement additive. unsure of it's purity or origins)

Things I cannot find thus far:

  • tomato PASTE
  • wheat grains (or any grains that could create a malt when sprouted
  • pure malt (I can find Milo, which has malt in it)
  • calcium carbonate

SO... any help from those of you deprived of first or second world amenities and supply chain servicing I would be happy to discuss a really solid neutral wash recipe with you.

Cheers!! Steve

Tagged:

Best Answer

  • edited December 2013 Answer ✓

    @Fiji_Spirits said: I'm pitching fairly hot. usually right around 100-104F. the wash stays pretty warm for a couple of days then drops to around 84F until it finishes. at no point does it drop below 82F. could this be an issue? I dont really have a way to cool this below this point, any suggestions for improvement?

    100-104F (38-40°C) seems a tad high to me for pitching your yeast. I read somewhere that at it's peak, yeast can raise the temperature by as much as 7°F (4°C), and produce higher alcohols. Could you drop this temp a few degrees using some sanitized, frozen water bottles or a copper chill coil?

«1

Answers

  • sorry, that was properly formatted when I hit enter... I promise :|

  • Bula! Might talk to the guys at Fiji Bitter over in Suva. They get the chems from somewhere. 3.2 is pretty acidic. Get a starter yeast batch started, add some wash, let it get going add some more wash, let it get going, then pitch the lot. start with a gallon, when its going good, add 3 gallons, when thats going add 5 when thats going pitch. Any off aromas or slimy growth on top of the ferm? Might try using cane juice if its available. Are you using tap water or bottled water (Chlorine?) I've always had good access to all the ferm chems. Some of the others might have some hacks you can use. PM me your addy and we'll see about getting you what you need. I love Fiji, did business there for a couple years.

  • I'd be trying your turbo yeast for sure, just keep the wash under 1080 and you should be good to go.

    TPW is very popular, if you don't want to use epsom salts leave it out and see what happens.

    What ph is your water before you start.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Not sure if you already have this link, but here is the Birdwatcher's Sugar Wash Recipe.

    It may help to refine your recipe with what you have on hand. There is also a tip at the bottom of the calculator where it's suggested you don't add all of the sugar at once.

  • edited December 2013

    @punkin, I did get decent results when I ran a high SG turbo yeast as far as alcohol production but it tasted about like you'd expect. I'm gonna strip this lower SG/half TY as nutrient batch tonite so we'll see how that turns out. far as the TPW, I've no problem with the epsom salts in practice. I can get those in small quantities at least for testing. But will that drop my PH?

    @nvnovrts & @Philter, hadnt seen that calculator, I'll give it a try, I found some actual tomato paste in the store today but it cost $6FJD for one small 300ML can. Ugh. at least it didnt have any additives or preservatives.

    my washes look pretty good. no slime or other weirdness, the tap water is not chlorinated, and the PH is 8.2 out of the tap. this is what throws me. i have such soft water, and it's dropping so fast.

    I could try the layered sugar adding approach. Right now the thing takes off so aggressively and moves so fast with bakers yeast. the champagne yeast has much less yeast and takes a day to really get rolling.

    Another question. I have just a four plate reflux. I'm running the hooch thru twice. would I remove more flavors/odors by running a third time to the point that it would be well worth it (read economically viable)?

    also, I have considered adding a 18-20" 4" pipe above the top sight window and filling it with raschig rings or some such media to add some more reflux on the cheap. would that pay dividends for a cleaner product?

    Cheers Steve

  • What i'm suggesting is that there's nothing wrong with the turbo per se. It's the high SG that's the problem. You could use the turbo at a lower SG and probably get a reasonable result.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • 1.05 from 1.1 sounds correct using bread yeast. You could try and add some local fruit for neutriants.

    Fertilizer will work, back in the dark ages they used horse poo.....

    nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, just make sure its pure no other shit like iron, lead, ect.

    Diamonium Phosphate. (DAP) would be the best to use, I've done a turbo with bakers yeast and this. 50/50, 1gram of each per L of wort.

  • I can reduce sugar with the turbo no prob.

    as for getting chemicals, like I alluded to, who knows what's in it. it's the cheapest stuff they can get and it's repacked from the original pack, which was probably the leftovers/rejects from china's first world contracts. no way I'm putting it in hooch.

    So, that leave me with chems I can trust (like stuff from the pharmacy or grocery store) or plant derived stuff. The goal here is to find an affordable neutral spirit that is smooth and uses indigenous(ish) materials I can get regularly.

    I can get pineapples and papaya(pawpaws) like crazy, as well as lemons/limes and coconuts pretty much all year round...

  • edited December 2013

    @Fiji_Spirits said: I can reduce sugar with the turbo no prob.

    I can get pineapples and papaya(pawpaws) like crazy, as well as lemons/limes and coconuts pretty much all year round...

    Now that's a thought - Fruit salad vodka. Freeze the fruit first, mash the shit out of it and add sugar/panella until you reach your SG. Adjust your PH with the citrics ;)

  • @Philter said: Now that's a thought - Fruit salad vodka. Freeze the fruit first, mash the shit out of it and add sugar/panella until you reach your SG. Adjust your PH with the citrics ;)

    With all those delicate tropical flavors… something good could come from this.

  • Fruit will work well for some nutrients

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • I wonder if we could find the fruit salad version of NPK? What has a lot of nitrogen in it? I can get bananas for potassium.

    Breadfruit. Taro. Cassava. Sawsop (like a big pear). Carrots. Bananas and plantains. Pawpaws. Pineapple. Lemons. Coconut. Kava. B All these I can get pretty much year round in quantity or on some level.

  • Never heard of coconut sugar. How is it made?

    (Lol. Sorry. That's the first question around here usually. If we can't buy it we have to make it from scratch which is more often than not. We have people trying to make corn chips from corn. )

  • I take it would be too expensive to have things shipped to Fiji from Bisbane or Sydney

  • You can use raisins for nutrients as well

  • Coconut Sugar.... You put the lime in the coconut ya call the doctor and woke him up...

  • if and when I get bigger I can afford to import raw materials in container quantities. until then, stuff gets to be not cost effective. the time and effort not to mention the expense of having something shipped in is onerous for even a simple package. then there is the 15% VAT and 32% duty

  • 32% duty!? Paradise is expensive.

  • let me fix that for you... Paradise is RELATIVE. :D

    It's nice enough here but it's hard to start a business and be successful at it with the hurdles they put up.

  • Yep, I spent a few months in an archipelago. A tropical paradise inhabited by a lovely but somewhat poor people, by developed nations standards, with an over-protectionist gov't. Foreigners were not allowed to own land or more than 49% of any company so needless to say there was precious little foreign investment.
    I cherish the time spent there but was itching to get back to China and a few creature comforts like a hot shower, dizzying array of foods and folks that truly enjoy doing business. Oh! to be able to spend a few months in every country and see the world first hand. Not possible for me to do but should you write a book, "A day in the life of Fiji-Spirits" I'd read it. Tan looked up Fiji and said, "Wow, it's beautiful" but she could not seem to find the Chinese translation. That's strange because so far it's the only one that she couldn't translate.

    Back on topic, you said your water started out about 8 pH but dropped to about 3 or so? I find this unusual and can't help but feel that's why your ferment is stalling. Is it municipal water? If so, it could be buffered to keep acidic (low pH) water from eating the water supply pipes. The buffer they use could be short-lived but this is all conjecture.

  • Yeah that really throws me too. You'd think I'd have plenty of room. The water is from a creek or spring and not municipal or treated In any way. Maybe the sugar is messing with it.

    In the latest batch to stick it was sugar, bakers yeast, and boiled bakers yeast as a nutrient. It took off like crazy then hit a wall after a couple of good days.

    I ran four batches simultaneously and the two with the above recipient stuck with a low ph. The other two had the same water and sugar and quantity.

    What causes the ph to drop? Is it nutrient depletion or alcohol increase or something else? I'm weak on chemistry so this is making me scratch my head. Last batch that stuck used a different yeast.

  • Its normal for the pH to lower as the ferment progresses but at about 2.5 or so its too acidic for the yeast. I also don't have a background in biology except what my first girlfriend taught me so I don't know the particulars of why the pH drops.
    Just bouncing ideas here... you can try using less sugar so the ferment completes faster, you can add a buffer to raise the pH 2 or 3 days into the ferment or you may want to try a different water source to see if that fixes the problem. Let us know what works because a pH drop from 8 to 3 (or so) is unusual in my experience. 7 to 4 is a bit more 'normal'.

  • Wow this brings into perspective how easy we have it with access to PH 5.2 buffers, Fermax and such....almost like I am cheating and you are having to work double. I did not see you mention acid to help invert the sugars, not absolutely necessary but could not hurt to add some lemon juice, or could it?

  • I still say if you start the wash@ <= 1080, 95% of your problems will dissapear.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • edited December 2013

    @punkin said: I still say if you start the wash@ <= 1080, 95% of your problems will dissapear.

    +1 happy yeast!!

  • well, I distilled out the champange yeast with boiled turbo as a nutrient. it had that same medicinal smell to it even using baking soda to absorb odors for 3 days.

    The stuck wash had the smell really bad, so I'll mix it with some previous hooch to extract the alcohol and figure out what to do with it later.

    I carbon filtered it thru a 36" column 4-5 times and it cleaned up to a mid shelf to bottom shelf vodka. tried a new mix and it tested very well, so at least that was good.

    Next batchs I'll try a TPW and a couple of TY washes with sugar at 1080 SG.

    things I discovered or have not mentioned that effect things; -I guess I'm on town water. it is chlorinated but not well filtered. maybe this was a factor, but the exact same water went into the other batch that ran fine. what can I do to reduce the chlorine levels? let the water breathe for a bit before mashing? heat it?

    -I'm pitching fairly hot. usually right around 100-104F. the wash stays pretty warm for a couple of days then drops to around 84F until it finishes. at no point does it drop below 82F. could this be an issue? I dont really have a way to cool this below this point, any suggestions for improvement?

  • Oh, what kind of things can raise the PH or act as buffers? I can get some lime, but who knows if theres anything else in it.

  • I am trying to remember the name of the Indian owned grocery chain in Fiji, they stock the big catering size tins of tomato paste.

Sign In or Register to comment.