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Questions about the 380L Bain-Marie Boiler

edited November 2013 in Usage
This discussion was created from comments split from: Away we go.

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  • Question about the 380L Baine Marie. I understand that the electric elements heat the water bath around the inner tank. Is the boiler able to bring water to a 212F boil? If yes, how does it do it without boiling the water bath away first? Perhaps glycol is used for the bath instead of water?

    If water is used for the bath, is steam vented/injected into the tank? If not, has any thought been given to this?

  • Yes, I will be in the market for a 380L (right about the time that they may not be available, LOL), and would like to know more about the design/layout of the bain-marie and the steam jacketed one...

  • edited November 2013

    As i understand it a jacketed boiler can't be used effectively to bring water to the boil if water is the HEX. As the temperatures of the outside and inside fluids get closer together the efficiency of transfer is reduced further.

    That's why Glycol or other specialised fluids are used, so the HEX can be heated to say 120C and thus have a wider difference (hence more efficiency) to transfer heat into the wash.

    @Myles has used both methods on the same equipment and can give you some more detial.

    The same principle applies to steam. Steam at atmospheric pressure is 100C it will have a lot of trouble boiling water in a jacketed boiler and further more can't be pushed around complex pipelines, that's why boilers use pressurised steam. The pressurised steam requires a purpose built certified boiler, and specialised fittings to cope with pressure relief and to carry the steam and waste water around the piping and back to the boiler.

    There is some information on heating water with steam on this page...

    Properties of Saturated Steam - Pressure in Bar

    This sort of system needs to be designed by a qualified person and approved by your regulating authority.

    I am not an expert on this stuff and know just enough to stay away from it. L-)

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  • The steam generator at Dancing Pines in CO.

    image

    steam_generator.jpg
    783 x 800 - 133K
  • edited November 2013

    There are two very different types of jacketed boilers available and superficially they look the same.

    Steam Jacketed boilers: These are typically rated for use with steam up to 5 bar and about 150 deg C. Rule of thumb pressure testing is 10x rated so they should be tested to about 50 bar. These can be for either piped or self generated steam.

    Atmospheric Pressure Jackets: These are intended for thermal transfer fluids at minimal pressure. Sometimes these are rated to 1.5 bar to allow for a small expansion generated pressure when used in a sealed mode with a fluid like glycol. Often the glycol or other fluid is circulated through an external filter.

    You can use atmospheric steam but WHY WOULD YOU? There is minimal beneficial thermal gradient involved. You are better off using a fluid that is at a higher temperature at the same pressure.

    When the inner pot contents are boiling you would ideally like the jacket to be 30 to 50 degrees C higher.

    Now atmospheric steam INJECTION is a different issue - but also a different topic.

  • edited November 2013

    Could one of the jacket ports on the 380L baine marie be used to take steam from the jacket and route it inside the tank through one of the top 2" triclamp fittings to the bottom of the tank? Perhaps use some kind of CIP ball on the end?

    Any different ideas? Route generated steam directly to the bottom 2" exit hole of the tank?

    Would running out of water in the jacket be a risk or would you complete distillation before that would ever happen?

  • There is one member who uses a steam jacket for the first part of the run and then later on diverts the steam from the jacket and injects it directly into the wash. Combines both methods in 1 run.

    If you use a direct generation steam jacket that creates its own steam, then you should use jacket level control. Either with a supply valve inside the jacket or with a coupled reservoir, where you control the level in the external reservoir.

  • edited November 2013

    I found a couple relevant articles at

    Distillique - How to use a water jacket boiler

    and

    Distillique - Steam wand for faster "bring to boil"s

    Given the option of vertically or horizontally oriented elements, which is better for a jacketed boiler? It seems a vertical placement gives a better shape for a conical(ish) bottom, but requires a higher minimum water level. Thoughts?

  • I am not a steam expert, but 30bbl brewhouses boil wort, which is essentially sugar water, which boils at well over 212 degrees very effectively with low pressure steam.... we are below that temp, so we should work better, right? here is a probrewer thread I found using google...

    High or low pressure steam for 30bbl system

    edit: they do mention running it at the upper end of the low pressure range... however, I have heard 7psi from a commercial distillery, that is 232 degrees..

  • Careful here folks. when you are talking about steam at 15 psi or 1 bar having a temperature of 121 deg C, you are talking of steam at 1 bar ABOVE atmospheric pressure. Not the temperature of steam as it comes out of a kettle AT atmospheric pressure. It is actually psig where the g is for guage - as in calibrated to read zero at sea level.

  • yes, PSIG, not PSIA, sorry

  • Now don't get me wrong as it is possible to run a steam jacketed boiler with vented atmospheric pressure steam. Provided you can do it outside and can manage the waste steam. Just it is not very efficient. I tried it inside and it turned the still room into a sauna.

    Thermally it is not very efficient as you waste a lot of energy and it is also slow. If you can increase the thermal gradient it works a lot better.

  • I was thinking using an officially installed closed loop system... but I did see that a commercial craft distillery (boulder distilling) was using open-loop steam on each of several vessels. Visited about 18 months ago... He just had the steam exhaust going into a bucket of water... sauna problem solved... he had 3-4 6' tall 2" copper boka's that were dripping azeotrope... the steam for each was generated by a pair of 5-6KW elements inside a single sankey keg... I though I had pictures, but cannot find them on my computer. One vessel is a commercial cooker that he puts a bag of local potato flakes in with enzyme and mashes with... 'mashed potatoes' ;-) the other vessels are the stills, he has a length of copper tubing inside them(could not see, took his word for it)...

  • edited November 2013

    In a case like that steam injection works a lot better as you are getting 100% of the energy delivered. At the price of a little dilution is all.

    Ultimate Steam Injected Mash Pot/Fermenter/Stripping Still @ AD

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Have to agree mate - at atmospheric pressure steam injection is the way to go. There are lots of historical examples of a steam boiler feeding a thumper that contains the wash.

    The only real issue for me is economics. If I am going to build a steam boiler - you can be sure that I will use steam in the entire distilling process. Everything from cleaning, to drying malt, to heating fermentation vessels. It just does not make financial sense to produce steam to ONLY power a boiler.

    The only reason big distilleries use steam heated boilers is because they have the steam already available.

  • Probably not the only reason. It does make sense to have ignition sources isolated too.

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  • :)) Well I did try to slip that past you!! Can't get anything past the oversight of punkin. ;)

    Agreed, NOT the only reason they use steam, but you will have to look a long way to find any distillery generating steam that is only used to heat a still.

  • I will only produce steam for the cleaning of all equipment after use, this is more or less a requirement here in Sweden .... otherwise, it takes a lot of strong detergents for sterilization and full documentation of everything, after every destillation ... ;-)

    Cheers

  • Do you use a separate steam boiler for that, or do you just boil clean water in the still? I tend to run steam through my still now and then, but not after each use.

  • Steam is much more efficient then double boiler to warm up tanks. then you got yourself some thermal oil. thats the ship right there! :) massive heat carrying capacity.

  • edited November 2013

    I think alot of things distilleries are not thinking about the reuse of energy. that wasted wash at 90+c can be circulated with a pump thru a heat exchanger to heat up your next batch from room (20-25c) to 45-50c saving you MONEY!

  • What's the reason they won't be available ? :-c

  • @cooperville said: What's the reason they won't be available ?

    Where is it said that something will not be available? :-?

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  • @Myles said: Do you use a separate steam boiler for that, or do you just boil clean water in the still? I tend to run steam through my still now and then, but not after each use.

    I shall by a small steam machine ( from kina) that a can move around so a can flush all my pipe and allso mashtun, and other wessel betven every use. Then all goverment is happy.....

    Cheers

  • edited November 2013

    @CothermanDistilling said: Yes, I will be in the market for a 380L (right about the time that they may not be available, LOL), and would like to know more about the design/layout of the bain-marie and the steam jacketed one...

  • edited November 2013

    @cooperville, oh now I see what you mean (better always quote the text you are referring to). I guess that has to do with the Chinese New Year interfering with the supply line.

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