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Newbie: 4 or 6 plate CD/Dash High ABV Product

If I have a 4 or 6 plate 4" Dash/CD will I need a 510 mm Steel/Copper packed section between the plates and the Dephlegmator to get +92% ABV with no stripping runs from a 14% sugar wash using a 3000Kw element in the 50L Milk Can?

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  • PS - running for speed ;))

  • No. i run a dash 4 and have no issue getting 92% off a 8% wash.

    i add a packed section to push higher when I'm after neutral.

    don't forget, slowing down a bit especially at the start will make your cuts easier.

  • I would only bother with the pack section if a neutral product is what you desire. 4 plates will hit that no worries, 6 plate will help you widen your hearts cut if you desire a quicker turn around.

  • @crozdog said: No. i run a dash 4 and have no issue getting 92% off a 8% wash. i add a packed section to push higher when I'm after neutral. don't forget, slowing down a bit especially at the start will make your cuts easier.

    Many thanks - just for interest, how much higher (ABV) have you managed to push with an additional packed section on a dash 4?

  • @FNQTrade said: I would only bother with the pack section if a neutral product is what you desire. 4 plates will hit that no worries, 6 plate will help you widen your hearts cut if you desire a quicker turn around.

    I thought 92% was neutral. I need to increase my expectations of the capabilities.

  • i pull plenty of flavour at 92%.

    The big factor is what your base is. a sugar wash will be pretty clean however a molasses or grain wash will still have lots of flavour at 92%

  • Hell, even high quality sugar-based GNS is still absolutely identifiable as being from sugar.

  • Neutral for sale at the bottle shop that costs money is not at all the same product as 92% off of a 6 plater in "the shed",,,,One hopes.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • @grim said: Hell, even high quality sugar-based GNS is still absolutely identifiable as being from sugar.

    Yeah ethanol has a kind of flavor signal that triggers sweet in your brain but not really sweet on your tongue. Couple that with the "hot on the front" astringency and nearly immediate evaporation sensation on your tongue and,,,,yeah. What he said.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • If neutral is your goal from a plated still then 6 plates strip and 6 plates with a packed section is what my artisan customers report as the best method for neutral.

    If neutral is the only thing you ever want to make then to be honest there are better configurations on a small scale than plated stills.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • edited April 2017

    If you want neutral neutral, do a stripping run, and two spirit runs. No cuts on the stripping run (blast it through as fast as possible without puking). Serious cuts on the first spirit run. No heads cut needed on the second spirit run.

    The extra effort of three runs is well worth the effort, IMHO. I do this to the base spirit I use for my gin.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • @punkin said: If neutral is your goal from a plated still then 6 plates strip and 6 plates with a packed section is what my artisan customers report as the best method for neutral.

    If neutral is the only thing you ever want to make then to be honest there are better configurations on a small scale than plated stills.

    This is a fantastic place to learn, many thanks everybody for being so patient with the same newbie confusions time and again.

    @Kapea - A stripping run followed by multiple fractional spirit runs with that cuts strategy is much appreciated.

    After some confusion on my part arising from the @grim and @Smaug comments appearing to be totally off topic. I was happy to realise it was a gentle nudge into learning the term neutral has a specific definition! "Tasteless and odourless, plus over 95% ABV" (catching up slowly).

    With limited equipment I've only ever been able to pitch for the highest ABV% "Neutral" with a small length 2" packed column. Never got close to 95% and carbon filtering was essential to overcome the off-smells and tastes. I recently learned about cuts.

    Whilst I'm on a verbal ramble, my knowledge about how to create a "happy yeast" wash or a flavour packed one for Whiskey, Rum, Gin (head explodes - baskets, botanicals) is zero. This makes me worry about appropriate copper levels. Lack of cuts explains many a bad day after.

    Recently I stubbled across a Magic Flute plated column design, and later found StillDragon. I want to try and understand if this new (to me) plated column gives me good neutral, and a pathway to Gin and Whiskey without starting again on the basic design - i.e. efficient use of money, and maximum re-usable parts. Very optimistic, I know. Flexibility vs efficiency.

    There are quite a few posts in this forum saying you need many many many many plates to get a good neutral, accompanied by mentions of hybrids utilising packed columns and bubble sections together. This has increasingly led me to believe that a plated column alone is not appropriate for neutral product, and it's brilliance is for flavoured products. Resulting in a barrage of questions from me around production of Neutral with a plated column.

    Away from the Neutral discussions I think people are of the opinion 4-6 bubbling copper plates is about right to neutralise any sulphur and retain enough flavour for Whiskey, Gin, Rum etc. This is a gross oversimplification fumbling for rules of thumb. For these products ABV% is an outcome not a goal. Neutral is bad.

    @punkin - Very perceptive comment it's helped me a lot. Neutral will be the only thing I will make for some time ahead due to my knowledge limitations. Re: artisan neutral from a plated still: are they saying 6 empty standard CD/Dash bubble sections for a stripping run, followed by a sprit run with the plates and caps installed into the 6 sections plus an additional 510mm Stainless Steel packed column before the dephlegmator? Sorry, if that's completely wrong. Could I be pointed towards the better configurations for neutral only?

  • If neutral is your only goal (and i'm using the word artisan in place of the phrase home made with all the extra connotations artisan carries) then in my opinion the best small tool is a Vapour Management (VM) column. This consists of a packed section (over 1.5 meters) a takeoff with a gate valve and on top of those a reflux condensor (usually a double wound copper coil).

    Others like to use a Liquid Management column, both are the same tool with different takeoffs.
    Both will pull 95%+ easily when well setup, diameter of the column will dictate the possible takeoff speeds with 12.l/hr maximum for 2" and 4l/hr maximum for 3" diameter packed sections.

    If you do a google search or have a look at artisandistiller.net then you will find quite a lot of info on how to build one.
    It is certainly possible to make one from StillDragon parts as well if you don't want to build.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @punkin Thanks for the link, nice to see friendly names over there. To be honest I feel I'm getting closer to nailing the SD kit and would not self build. The EU all ports open milk can and stand arrived today - it's very impressive. Could you explain the artisan neutral a bit more?

  • edited April 2017

    Don't mix up the hobby and the commercial posters, on the commercial side we are driven by different motivations and have different goals.

    What I was getting at is, if you really wanted clean neutral, sugar is tough, especially fermenting at 14%.

    Wheat > Corn > Sugar - and fruit based neutrals a whole different category really.

    Does that mean you can't make a great neutral on sugar? No, you absolutely can.

  • edited April 2017

    +1 what he said.
    I am a hobby distiller, so the journey is as important to me as the destination... mostly.

    Pros have a whole nother set of considerations, unless they are just doing community service.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • Couple of my customers run SD VM columns. I've been told the Big Baby condensor will knock down 2200 watts. I don't know for sure, but i have been told that. Failing that the medium product 2" condensor should max out a 2" packed column.

    I wouldn't like to go into my wording any more than i already have as distilling at home is illegal in many countries. As Grim says, neutral is different to different people and certainly in many countries there are legal definitions for commercial distillers.
    Vodka and neutral are not really the same thing in many peoples eyes.

    The strength of a plated column is it's versatility. They can be used to make neutral, they also make very good brown spirits and with enough plates very good vodka.

    A plated column is a one trick pony, although some people make light whiskies with them. Same with a pot still, i have made flavoured vodkas with a pot still, but certainly wouldn't get a Scandinavian to drink them.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @punkin Sorry I see now I should not have asked that question.

    Very interesting. One thing I cannot nail down in my head is, what problem or situation does a plated column seek to minimise or optimise. What were people trying to do when they decided "a plated column would be best for this, we better invent one"?

  • edited April 2017

    Turndown ratio - the flexibility to adjust the output purity by using the reflux ratio. All things fixed/equal, plates can operate in a wider range of conditions than a packed column, giving the operator more flexibility into achieving the output they want. I'm not talking about adding and removing plates, I'm talking about only using the reflux/dephlegmator temperature to control the output.

    Weight, logistics - Imagine a 12" by 20' column full of metal packing. It would weigh an astronomical amount. The packing might even crush under the weight of itself. At wider column diameters, liquid distribution becomes a major issue, channeling and maldistribution significantly reducing distillation efficiency - so much so that you now need multiple liquid redistributors, and they need to be able to carry the weight of the packing.

    Cost - You hit a point at which a tray becomes less expensive than packing, even just considering the cost of the metal alone, not even the cost of remediating the issues above.

    Cleaning - When you can't dismantle a column, how effectively you can clean it becomes a real concern, especially once it starts getting large.

  • @grim - many thanks. That info has helped put all these comments into context.

  • As Grim says once you step out of the small 2-4" range the equations become much different.

    In a commercial environment a plated column is the most economical choice. Of the different types of plated columns, bubblecaps offer the most flexibility in power and product.

    In an artisan environment providing neutral is all you ever want to produce then a packed column is your best choice. If you want something that is able to do a variety of spirits then the bubblecap column is your best choice.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Thanks to everybody. I think I've got it. Which probably means I still know squat.

  • Discussion on another forum is some what similar (except for the bad manners). And a participant of the discussion asks how does one know this packed column bad behavior exists at the larger diameters.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • One hand clapping.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @punkin said: One hand clapping.

    English please?

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • Sorry, i'm speaking Zen. That is the only translation.

    If we can have zombies then we can have Zen.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @fidget I normally mash weetbix and sugar for my vodka but tpw is a good base as well

    I aim for a 10% mash into my 50L boiler I then run 6 procap plates and a 510mm stainless steel wool packed section with a non procap plate at the bottom to hold the wool in

    I have a super reflux condensor but have used the 6hole one before as well

    For my first run I run max flow through my condensor and run full power your output from the smaller condensor will be higher as it can only knock down about 2400w

    I collect everything apart from the first 150ml and put it into a 19l keg I do multiple mashes and will add the product from the previous run

    Once I fill a keg (roughly 6 mashes) ill dilute it down to 40% and run it at 2.5Lph taking a tight heart cut I generally get about 9L of 95+% I then water this down to about 20% and run again at 2.5lph to clean it up even more

    Again taking tight cuts

    After this it generally gets made into gin :p

    Hope this helps?

  • So out of How many l of 10% you end up with how much 95%. Ie how much you cut out ?

  • Per 30L mash Ill generally get 1.5L at Highproof that ill keep

    30L at 10% is 3L at 100% I dont have my notes on me but its normally 150-200ml fores about 600-800ml heads 1.5L ish of hearts and the rest tails but im not sure if that sounds right

    I dont need to take the fores cut on my 2nd run but I normally do anyway

    So 1.5L x 6 is 9L of 95% (out of 18L potentiall at 100%) so I get roughly half on my 2nd distillation

    And then I might cut out some more on my 3rd distillation so id water the previous 9L down and have a 40L charge and then id potentially cut it further and may walk away with 5-8L depending on how much smearing and how anal I am

    Total drinkable product is still like 12L at 40% so im not to worried

    Does that make sense?

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