Why is taste spirit have bitter?

edited July 2016 in General

I have CM column.

I just finished my second run. My first run was the same but just a shake down run I returned all the first distill to the second run (dilution 40%)

Why is taste spirit have bitter?

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  • What percentage of the total distillate collected was kept as your product?

    Bitter is a common taste in the distillate towards the end of the run. Keeping a large portion of tails as product can introduce bitter flavors.

    Also, what did you ferment? Did it burn? A mash that is burned will have an acrid bitter taste through the whole run, which may not distill out.

  • i collected my product in 20 jar. All my jax have bitter taste i ferment for rice and corn. I use DistillaMax HT yeast sorry. my bad english

  • Did you mash your rice and corn? Or are they there just to add flavor?

    If you did mash your rice and corn, what processes did you use?

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • edited July 2016
    • Rice/Corn/Malt: 60/30/10%
    • Heat 40kg Rice + 20kg Corn cracked with 180L of water to 95-98°C
    • Add 20ml Termamyl - SC and hold there for 1 hour
    • Cool to 60-65°C add 35ml Dextrozyme GA + 6kg Malt and hold there for 1 hour (OG: 1.050, Brix: 14-14.5)
    • Cool to 30-32°C
    • Add hydrated yeast & leave to ferment (maintain at 30-32 C)
    • Final SG of around 0.950-1.000 (4th day)
  • edited July 2016

    While your efficiency is looking somewhat poor (should be closer to 1.08), there is nothing in your process flow that would cause the issue. Could possibly be a large infection - what was the pH at time of pitching? What was the odor of the mash before distillation?

    You might consider holding at 95-98c for 1.5 hours, adding a second dose of Termamyl SC after the gelatinization (at 80c or less), and adding the Dextrozyme GA at a slightly lower temperature - 55c (keep the malt where it is).

    DistillaMax HT at your fermentation temperatures should be just fine.

    Otherwise, everything is looking good.

  • Except collecting all product in a 20l jar. I am on the phone so I don't know how to link to it but kiwis guide to cuts is required reading. It wont make an authentic rice wine as that has no cuts. But it will make a superior one.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • edited July 2016

    @punkin said: Except collecting all product in a 20l jar. I am on the phone so I don't know how to link to it but kiwis guide to cuts is required reading. It wont make an authentic rice wine as that has no cuts. But it will make a superior one.

    Here: Kiwi's Guide to Cuts

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • Oh I thought he meant he collected in 20 separate jars

  • Ahh could be right there. I may have misinterpreted.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • edited July 2016

    @grim said: While your efficiency is looking somewhat poor (should be closer to 1.08), there is nothing in your process flow that would cause the issue. Could possibly be a large infection - what was the pH at time of pitching? What was the odor of the mash before distillation?

    You might consider holding at 95-98c for 1.5 hours, adding a second dose of Termamyl SC after the gelatinization (at 80c or less), and adding the Dextrozyme GA at a slightly lower temperature - 55c (keep the malt where it is).

    DistillaMax HT at your fermentation temperatures should be just fine.

    Otherwise, everything is looking good.

    • Ph before add yeast : 6,0
    • Ph day 1: 4.0
    • Ph day 2 : 3.7
    • Ph before distillation : 3.4

    Thank

  • edited July 2016

    This is process distillation of my CM column ( 10 plate):

    • Dilution stripping : 40%
    • heat to boil : temp : 182 - 184°F. When temp180°F open max valve cool in dephlegmator.
    • Reflux for 1 hour. Slowly decrease the cooling in deph, start to separate out distinct fractions in the foreshots. temp deph out : 120 - 130°F. Temp top : 174°F, temp vapor near condenser : 140 - 170. Take foreshot
    • When temp vapor near condenser : 170°F( may be 30 min) I increase cool in deph reflux again ( 30 min), then Slowly decrease the cooling in deph. Take head
    • When temp vapor near condenser : 170°F I increase cool in deph reflux again ( 30 min), then Slowly decrease the cooling in deph. Take heart
    • temp deph out : 130°F. Temp top : 174 - 176°F, temp vapor near condenser : 166 - 170°F, temp out condenser : 30°F
    • when smell alcohol of wet dog, mint. Take tails
    • i collected my product in 20 separate jars
    • When dilution spirit ( jar 7- 14) down 40%. Taste bitter
  • Is contamination a possibility?
    What metals, seal materials are in contact?

  • edited July 2016

    @jacksonbrown said: Is contamination a possibility?
    What metals, seal materials are in contact?

    Is ferment contamination?

    Cooker and tank ferment make inox 304

    Thank

  • So this is a new still you have bought? Is it from StillDragon? Did you fire it up and do a cleaning run before these rice ferments went through?

  • I dont cleaning run. but I still a lot

  • edited July 2016

    Well, the problem isn't in anything that you've said, everything looks good there.

    Burned mash, bacterial infection (a negative one, not positive one), or some sort of contamination on your fermentables - these are the only wild-cards I could think of.

    But nothing stands out in your process as being the cause.

  • When I suggested contamination I was thinking more post distillation.
    Silicon hosing is out for me. It may not break down but I can sure as hell taste it.

  • edited July 2016

    If you use silicone tubing, it needs to be platinum cured and come out of a pharmaceutical grade manufacturer who does a post-cure extraction of volatiles.

    I wouldn't use cheap peroxide cure silicone tubing either (I'm looking at you China).

    Teflon is my plastic of choice.

  • Teflon is great but too hard for good sealing IMO.
    I like the PTFE Enveloped stuff for triclamp seals.

    TUF-FLEX® The Ultimate in Gasket Performance (PDF)

  • I also like those envelope seals and have used them off and on in some places for a long time. They are not one dollar seals though.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Definitely not. Very expensive, but the best always is :((
    Maybe you guys should have a go at sourcing some while you're over there. 'bout time for a foodie report too [-(

  • edited July 2016

    I do not use plastic on finished spirits. I'm not a zealot and demand that of others, but neither do I use it. Hot high strength ethanol is a powerful solvent. Like JB says, it tastes funky. Plenty of glass and metal to be had... (gaskets don't count - minimal contact)

    But hey, if it makes you happy, it looks good on you.

    I've tried PTFE triclamp gaskets. Suckers are hard, and difficult to work with. The silicon ones SD sells seal well and don't add any flavors I can detect.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • You can taste Teflon?

  • edited July 2016

    PTFE no. Silicon tubing yes.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • edited July 2016

    I don't use paper coffee filters either. I can taste them in my coffee.

    Although I do cover the mouths of my "air out jars" (2L erlenmeyer flasks) with paper coffee filters.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • @jacksonbrown said: Definitely not. Very expensive, but the best always is :((
    Maybe you guys should have a go at sourcing some while you're over there. 'bout time for a foodie report too [-(

    Sourcing them is not a problem. I dont stock them for the reasons above.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @punkin I agree with @jacksonbrown Where is the food report. We well some us us have been waiting in anticipation

  • edited July 2016

    "Curiouser and curiouser!" Cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English).

    image

    won02a.gif
    270 x 695 - 13K

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • @GD50 said: punkin I agree with jacksonbrown Where is the food report. We well some us us have been waiting in anticipation

    I have limited connection to the forum here and cant post pics. Ill give a report in the appropriate thread when i return. Suffice to say that the food is out of this world. I have eaten something i have never eaten before every single meal and sometimes 3 or 4 things.

    I am reveling in it. Just the sheer volume of food is stumping me. It keeps coming every time you think it's finished another couple of courses.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

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