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Appalachian Moonshine - Potential Problem

edited April 2016 in Recipes

G'day all,

New to the forum, and new to the hobby!

Got my hands on the Appalachian Moonshine recipe (because I watched the show) and all seemed to go very well - bubbling happily yesterday but today I found white bubbles in a spiderweb like appearance on the fermenter...

What could it be? Is it still safe to do stripping runs?!?

image

Comments

  • Beautiful.

    Fine to strip - it's probably a whopper of a pediococcus infection.

    Taste it, probably pretty darn sour (you will not die).

    Take a gravity, check to see how far it is from finishing fermentation. Strip it as soon as your get close to 1.00 - don't push it further as you'll likely lose alcohol to the bacteria.

  • First bit of good news! The SG was at 1.00 yesterday... So will scoop off the 'spiderweb' and then syphon the rest into several stripping runs!

    Any idea why it may have occurred? Too many times opening the lid? Was expecting the CO2 to keep this sort of thing at bay...

  • Thats my house germ. I get it in everything. Either left it too long or didn't ferment hard and fast enough. High alc and low PH will protect better than a co2 blanket. I get it much more in allgrain and beer than i do in UJSM.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @punkin said: Thats my house germ. I get it in everything. Either left it too long or didn't ferment hard and fast enough. High alc and low PH will protect better than a co2 blanket. I get it much more in allgrain and beer than i do in UJSM.

    We only added 8Kg of sugar into the mash and the pH read 4.5, but I haven't spent a great deal of time with the pH meter so I took it as an approx. only. It tastes sour as mentioned above (does that mean it's a sour-mash? Haha) but disgustingly so... Currently doing stripping runs, starts @ around 50%ABV and we take it down to 25%. Smells a little like burnt popcorn...

  • edited April 2016

    @EZiTasting said: Any idea why it may have occurred? Too many times opening the lid? Was expecting the CO2 to keep this sort of thing at bay...

    Pedio is a facultative anaerobe - so actually the other way around - they prefer an anerobic environment (low oxygen), but will usually grow just fine in the presence of oxygen too.

    Pedio and the other Lactobacillus bacteria can often hitch a ride on the grain, and then will stick around on your mashing and fermentation equipment, usually because we keep feeding them and giving them a nice place to live.

  • edited April 2016

    @EZiTasting said: Currently doing stripping runs, starts @ around 50%ABV and we take it down to 25%. Smells a little like burnt popcorn...

    Absolutely Pediococcus - the bacteria will produce a high amount of diacetyl - which smells like ... bingo ... butter popcorn.

    You getting any butterscotch?

    A little diacetyl goes a long way in providing a nicer mouth feel. Don't write it off as trash, it could be very good.

  • edited April 2016

    Done 3 X 50L strip runs, pretty sure one more left to go... this will have all the grain in it. Sieving the grains out and squeezing the juices out is going to be a long and slow process! Hope it's all worth it!

    So, obviously I will need to sterilise the fermenter, sieve and buckets... what about the boiler and still?!?!?

    To prevent this from happening again, do I strip it sooner? Put more sugar in? Not worry about it? Boil the corn longer? It's the first time I've had a go at this, so your guidance is greatly appreciated!

    We used our pot still components for the stripping run, is there any post-spirit run cleaning we need to consider? I am concerned that I've exposed not only myself and family but all our equipment to infection... It may be an overreaction, but I don't know what the potential outcome is/could be?!?!? Where we live, it gets nice and hot and is, at times, very humid; perfect for growing diseases...

    One more question (sorry), being the first run it is a sweet mash and we're supposed to keep some of the 'Trub' left at the bottom for future runs (as in sour-mashing). Can we still use this mash or has the infection ruined this Trub??

  • Wont hurt your still. Alcohol steam cleaning is about as good a sterilisation as you could hope for.

    Wont hury you or your family and you cant catch a disease. Worst thing can happen is you wont like the lacto flavour.

    I wouldnt use the trub although tge backset will be sterile and fine to use.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • edited April 2016

    A number of pedio strains are being studied as beneficial probiotics.

    You don't need to sterilize the boiler/still - the boiling will do that.

    Everything that touches mash needs to be thoroughly cleaned, and chemically sanitized. Iodophor, Star san, etc etc.

    Do not re-use the trub, you will reinfect the next mash. Given the Pedio and potential lacto infection - this is absolutely a "sour-mash".

    We could give you some tips on the procedure, but we'd need to know it.

  • Rito, It's from another site (one I joined before I knew of this site). Am I permitted to link to it or should I copy and paste?

  • edited April 2016

    I don't think it really matters, either way.

    The beer guys really have this thing nailed down to a science - as sanitation on the brewing side is significantly more critical.

    A COMPLETE GUIDE TO CLEANING AND SANITATION

  • edited April 2016

    @grim said: I don't think it really matters, either way.

    The beer guys really have this thing nailed down to a science - as sanitation on the brewing side is significantly more critical.

    A COMPLETE GUIDE TO CLEANING AND SANITATION

    Thank you, will investigate further!

  • edited April 2016

    Sorry, spending a week away with the family and forgot to pop this up (pls note, this is from another distilling website, most will know it):

    Traditional Appalachian (U.S.) sweet mash corn whiskey

    Posted by MtnMoonshiner » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:35 pm

    Here's the recipe I use for my sweet mash corn whiskey(as opposed to sour mash whiskey). It's a fairly traditional style recipe from my area, but this particular one was taught to me by my uncle. I'm sure it's a little different here and there from others around in my neck of the woods. Keep in mind that it's for quite a lot...I'll let you use your imagination as to why I would ever make this much :)) Just figure up the percentages, and dial it down according to your own needs/wants. In the past I've cut it down to 50% of everything, for a small run, and it came out just as good.

    This is how I make this particular mash from start to finish. Again, please keep in mind that I'm coming from a more traditional and old school background, you can adjust the techniques as you see fit. Also, if you know a better way, please let me know! I'm also here to learn

    This is to be mixed in one 200L(55gal) barrel

    • 22kg(50lbs) of dried cracked yellow corn. The kind without any additives or other grains, that you'd buy at a feed store to feed chickens. You can also use corn meal, just make sure it's not the self rising kind.
    • 11kg(25lbs) rye meal.
    • 5.8kg(13lbs) ground barley malt.
    • 25 lbs. of sugar. I was taught only to use the sugar if it was really hot outside, because it helps keep the temperature of the mash from getting too high(via endothermic reaction). However, using the sugar increases the alcohol content. Keep in mind as a general rule of thumb though, that the more sugar you add,you get a higher proof, but you sacrifice a little flavor. The less sugar, a little lower proof, but the more you'll be able to taste the grain and corn. Depends on what you want.
    • 2 packages of yeast. I personally use regular baking yeast. I've tried the brewers and distillers varieties, but I've found it don't really make much a difference.

    Heat 75L(20gal) of water to boiling and pour in the barrel. Add the cracked corn and stir with a wooden dowel rod until the corn starts to soften a little and suck up some of the water. If you're using meal, stir it until all the clumps are broke up and it's about average consistency. Add the rye meal and mix until all the clumps of that are broke up. let the mash cool for about 2 hours, then pour a few gallons of the mixture into a separate bucket and stir in all but .5kg(about a 1lb) of the malt. Stir it up real good and pour that mixture back into the main barrel, then mix that in real good with the overall mash.

    Sprinkle the remainder of the malt on the top surface of the mash and let it sit until the malt begins to crack(you'll see what I mean). When the malt on the surface cracks, start stirring the barrel from the bottom up, until it's cool enough to stir with your bare hand and arm. Fill up the rest of the barrel with water, but make sure you keep the mash temperature around about 35C(95F). That's around the optimum temperature for the yeast to do it's thing, but not too hot to kill it. This is when you'll decide to either add the sugar, or exclude it. Depending on what I said above

    Put a small amount of mash in a separate bucket and mix in the yeast. When the mixture begins foaming up, pour it back into the mash barrel. Stir it up real good and cover it, but not tightly. I use a canvas tarp, or a piece of plywood laid over the top of the barrel. Just something to keep bugs and other critters out. In a few hours, the entire barrel should be working. Depending on the outside temperature and environmental conditions.

    There are several ways from my school to tell whether or not it's ready to run through the still. Once the mash starts to ferment, it will form on top what we call a cap. That's the foamy, film that forms on top. Once the cap dissolves nearly all the way, it should be ready to run. However, you should taste a bit of the wash. It will taste similar to a corn flavored beer that you'd buy at a store, if it was something that was even sold. Taste it and you'll see what I mean. By the taste test, it should taste bitter and like it's got enough alcohol in it. This is normally something you have to be shown by someone else. But since you're in a completely different country, we'll have to do the best we can hahaha. Regardless, it should be ready to run in 4 to 6 days, depending on outside temperature and conditions.

    Before I run it, I strip the slop corn/grain out and distill only the wash. You can pour the entire mash into the still if you're in a hurry, but it's a real pain to clean out afterwords. And you run a greater risk of the mash puking out of the pot and farther into your still. If this happens, you'll be able to tell because the liquor will start coming out a milky white color...or the flow will stop, and your still will blow up from too much pressure! :))

    Some final points. The barley and rye are optional but add a fantastic flavor in my opinion...However, you can use just straight corn(I recommend trying just corn eventually and seeing which you like best).

    You can use corn malt, or barley malt. It doesn't matter which, but you need to use some kind of malt, because it aids the yeast in breaking down the sugars into alcohol. If you decide to use corn malt, just subtract the amount of barley malt from the total amount of corn. for example, 50lbs of corn total, but if I don't use barley malt I would use 13lbs of malted corn, with 37lbs of unmalted corn for a total of 50lbs. And then add unmalted barley and rye in their prescribed amounts.

    If you can't find rye or barley meal, just throw the whole grains into a good quality blender a little at a time and chop it up real fine. It doesn't have to be powdery like meal to work though.

    As stated above, this is for a sweet mash whiskey. I personally prefer sour mash whiskey. I can explain the difference if you don't know, but if you think you'll want sour mash whiskey, you have to make this first and with cracked corn instead of meal; since you'll use a portion(or all) of this mash to start your next run, depending on which technique you use.

    I was taught, and have found out from personal experience that the hotter you run your still, the more harsh the liquor is. And vice versa. That being said, since I run a still that's akin to something your great grandfather might have seen, I don't have any temperature gauges...or any gauges for that matter! The typical technique we use to determine if you're running your liquor too fast/hot is by how much it's coming out the money piece(that's the spout at the end of the worm. The worm is what we refer to the condenser coil as). You don't want it coming out in a stream any bigger than about the size of a match stem, or maybe a little smaller than a pencil.

    Also, if any part of this is confusing, or if you don't know how to malt your own barley or corn, whichever you decide to use, let me know and I'll give you directions, it ain't hard to do at all.

    I hope this isn't too much information, but I didn't want anyone to be left in the dark on any points. There are few short answers in this craft, and I think I'd be doing a disservice to anyone by explaining it in any less detail. That being said, this whiskey should proof at about 125-150 fresh out of the still, and I sincerely hope you enjoy it. You should have something as close to genuine Appalachian moonshine as can be had in Australia

    This is what I followed...

  • edited April 2016

    @grim said: I don't think it really matters, either way.

    The beer guys really have this thing nailed down to a science - as sanitation on the brewing side is significantly more critical.

    A COMPLETE GUIDE TO CLEANING AND SANITATION

    Amen brother! One of my great attractions to distilling is not having to be anal-retentive about sanitizing my mashes and washes. Just chuck it on in there and let'er rip!

    FWIW I brew a lot of beer and mead and have not had an unintentionally infected batch in decades.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • Boy, not followed my own post, dumb-a#*$e!

    Anyway, thanks to the advise given, we scooped off the infection mass then proceeded to strip the AM. Turned out alright (have nothing to compare it to), initially it seemed almost neutral with very little flavour. Ended up with 6L of final product after the spirit run, 2L on medium oak, 2L on dark oak and 2L white dog...

    After a month on and it's cleared up nicely, a little colour and very smooth! Had a couple of friends taste it with me and it's very much like a Burbon, a little sweet with corn overtones, but very much nicer than before.

    Obviously my lack of knowledge and experience has had an effect on yield and taste, but I can't see how, in Moonshiners, they taste it off the still and swoon! Ok, it's a TV show dramatization, but seriously!?!?! Tasted like fuel of our still!! Don't ask how I know fuel tastes!

  • They are drinking water and acting.

  • Ummm...maybe it's just getting used to tasting off the condenser, or maybe I'm just kidding myself, but teaspooning right off the still lets me experience really good flavor notes in the output spectrum. Ok, sometimes some bad ones, too.

    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

    my book, Making Fine Spirits

  • @zymurgybob said: Ummm...maybe it's just getting used to tasting off the condenser, or maybe I'm just kidding myself, but teaspooning right off the still lets me experience really good flavor notes in the output spectrum. Ok, sometimes some bad ones, too.

    Thinking on that a bit more, I'll be less hesitant. When I've taught classes with a group of people observing a still run, I've pointed out flavor notes at particular times, and most people agreed with the observation, once they get used to doing it.

    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

    my book, Making Fine Spirits

  • @zymurgybob said: Ummm...maybe it's just getting used to tasting off the condenser, or maybe I'm just kidding myself, but teaspooning right off the still lets me experience really good flavor notes in the output spectrum. Ok, sometimes some bad ones, too.

    Makes sense to me. With only a little amount to taste, your saliva will instantly dilute down to drinking strength

  • edited May 2016

    @Unsensibel said: Makes sense to me. With only a little amount to taste, your saliva will instantly dilute down to drinking strength

    There ya go! ;)

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • Good point! I forgot to say that I recommend catching only a tiny sample on the spoon, and yup, it's saliva dilution thing.

    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

    my book, Making Fine Spirits

  • Spend enough time on the receiving end of the parrot and you find yourself wondering if all the vodka was watered down by the bartender.

  • @grim, too true. And I know that I have swooned to a couple of particularly good batches while tasting off the parrot. AFTER the heads cut was done, of course.

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