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DIY Power Controller

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  • edited August 2013

    These are what I stock.

    image

    SSR pic.jpg
    600 x 767 - 51K

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  • Sorry, but i can't make out anything from that picture

  • Nevermind, its fixed

  • Wow, looking up the ssr links to nothing but chinese websites. So the question remains, are they realy phase angle controllers? And how do you know?

  • @xecros ok I'll bite. If its not a phase angle controller what would it be? And obviously it works for a controller in this application, so why would it matter? Sorry, but I've never seen anyone ask this pointed of question regarding SSR's before and im just curious as to the details.

  • I'm going to have to dust off my oscilloscope to prove it to you aren't I......

  • edited August 2013

    @Law_Of_Ohms said: I'm going to have to dust off my oscilloscope to prove it to you aren't I......

    you can doooo ittttt!

    It is what you make it!

  • @LunaBrille I'm the type of guy that does my homework. For example, in this case, most people would be happy to buy the controller kit, as is. It's advertised to control your heating element, and most people would be satisfied with this. I'm not. According to my research, there are approximately 4, maybe 5 different kinds of SSR's. Each one controls the element in a particular way. The phase angle SSR controls the element, in the manner in which I feel is best, specifically, it clips the sine wave to control voltage level.

  • Don't really know what to tell you. This is the best value out there bar none. It works as advertised. There is no " voltage " control. The voltage remains constant. The input is applied by governing the amperage input.

    Have Mulekicker build you his exact same unit for $350

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  • edited August 2013

    What's SD's DIY controller price? $31? Includes a box that usually costs $30!
    We do the best we can to offer you the best value.
    I tried for 3 hours today to answer this question and could not because I'm not a sparky. My Chinese supplier could not understand the translation of "phase angle".

    **Edited to remove unnecessary and hurtful comments. Apologies.

  • @Lloyd Take a breath and calm down. I don't think Xecros was jabbing at you or your offering. Some people just want to know more than others. :-)

  • I can easily do the pictures and basic text, I need help from someone to format it correctly into a manual... but... I'm a bit reluctant to do a manual for a $31 DIY kit, seriously, its a DIY kit. If you have questions on how to put it together, you should not be buying a DIY kit!

  • I agree, it should come with a basic diagram to give to your electrician to put together for you.

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  • Apologies, @Xecros, I took your posts the wrong way. A member here gave a link in PM about your quest on another forum so I do see now that you are seriously wanting information. With luck LOO will be able to answer your question since I can't get a proper translation to/from my supplier.

  • edited August 2013

    There is all I could find on the SSR relay below. 2410 is the 10 Amp, 2440 is 40 Amp.

    image

    But I can't translate the rest sorry.

    CDSSR-1 VA 2440.jpg
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  • Thanks to Big Pa for this comment..

    Just one quick word. The SSR’s we use are based on a triac. When you adjsut the trigger of the triac, you are adjusting the phase angle of the supply to the element. From Wiki In addition, applying a trigger pulse at a controlled phase angle in an AC cycle allows one to control the percentage of current that flows through the TRIAC to the load (phase control), which is commonly used, for example, in controlling the speed of low-power induction motors, in dimming lamps and in controlling AC heating resistors.

    Hope it helps.

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  • edited August 2013

    @Xecros said: LunaBrille I'm the type of guy that does my homework. For example, in this case, most people would be happy to buy the controller kit, as is. It's advertised to control your heating element, and most people would be satisfied with this. I'm not. According to my research, there are approximately 4, maybe 5 different kinds of SSR's. Each one controls the element in a particular way. The phase angle SSR controls the element, in the manner in which I feel is best, specifically, it clips the sine wave to control voltage level.

    @Xecros, I agree that it’s good to understand what you're buying, I am like that too, but there are many things in life where it doesn’t really matter eg just because someone knows how the 4 stroke motor works does not mean they can drive a car.. Does anyone care how an ATM works – or just that when they put their card in & the right pin, they can withdraw cash… Sorry to be blunt but whether the SD DIY kit is phase angle control or something else is another example.

    Now I’ve said that, please take a breath & let me try & work it out & help you understand the electronics a little: The following paper will provide you with some generic detail on 6 different types of “SSR” available and how they function / are used: SSR General Information (PDF). It shows that there are only a couple of types relevant to our needs.

    To take a step backwards from which type SSR should be used or what type the SD unit is, consider that when controlling power there are 3 basic techniques commonly used by the distilling community for controlling elements (ie resistive loads): Phase angle control, Burst Fire control and Pulse Width Modulation (PWM). Note Solid state relays can be controlled by all of these methods. The control can be either internal or external.

    This PDF from Crydom explains Phase angle control & Burst Fire control. As an FYI, this site has a great pic of the difference between phase angle & burst fire: Thyristor Power Regulator - Single phase angle control

    Don't get confused by marketing & techno babble...a SSR is an electronic alternative (advantages include fast & quite operation, no spark etc) to a mechanical relay (contactor) used where you use a low power circuit to control a high power circuit. That control can be 0-5V, 0-10V, 4-20mA, a resistive value, or some other varying signal that is translated into a desired load-power level. Which control you apply is determined by the design of the SSR itself. As I said earlier, some of the control circuitry can be inbuilt. On my control panel I control my SSR’s by using a PWM circuit to adjust the ratio that 12v is applied to the control input compared to the time off (ie I adjust the width of the on pulse). Other devices such as the PSR25 and the SD DIY unit are SSR's with most of the control circuitry inbuilt - the user only needs to add an external potentiometer to complete the control circuit.

    Based on my electronics knowledge / experience as well as the info in these sites listed above & by noting the SD DIY kit is simply controlled by an external potentiometer, i conclude it must be either a phase angle unit or a burst fire unit. As mentioned, either of these methods are suitable for controlling resistive loads such as elements however you will get less "noise" from a burst fire unit due to the zero crossing. However for the price, I doubt that it is a burst fire unit as the control circuitry is a lot more expensive to produce than phase angle.

    Sorry that this response doesn't categorically tell you that it is phase angle control, (like @Law_Of_Ohms said, I'd need an oscilloscope to prove it) but seriously do you really care if its phase angle or burst fire?? Now that I have built my controller, I don’t think about it, I just turn the knob to the right setting for what I’m doing at the time. Personally I am more concerned with enzyme activity, extract efficiency, yeast health and controlling the temperature of my ferments so I can make consistent product. The unit provides an economical way to control your power with minimal effort required to set it up, so even if you don’t know if it is burst fire or phase angle control you will still be able to sleep at night and know the world will keep spinning and ATM’s will continue to dispense cash ;-).

  • edited August 2013

    Question regarding the controller. When the controller is dialed all the way down will there still be power going to the element thus the element will still create a level of heat? Please forgive the noob comment but figured better to ask then to assume. Thanks for any feedback.

    Also what size wire should be used for the pot to the ssr?

  • yes, assume some power will be flowing.

    The wire between the pot and SSR does not need to be thick at all, its a few milliamps of control current.

  • edited August 2013

    @Law_Of_Ohms said: yes, assume some power will be flowing.

    The wire between the pot and SSR does not need to be thick at all, its a few milliamps of control current.

    Okay so the pot does not act as an on off switch for the element but rather just as a control, correct? So when using this for sparge water you will need to disconnect the power to the controller otherwise even when dialed down it will continue to heat the sparge water?

    So to add this into a setup correctly I will need an on/off switch in line before the controller box. Would a switch like this do the trick?

    Leviton 3032-2I 30 Amp, 120/277 Volt, Toggle Double-Pole AC Quiet Switch, Extra Heavy Duty Spec Grade, Self Grounding, Back and Side Wired, Ivory

    Thanks for the feedback.

  • I'm told on very good advice there should be no power when the pot is dialled to zero, although it's best practice to unplug the device.

    Also that 20 gauge wire is a good choice.

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  • Okay sounds good. I guess I will find out soon enough.

    Absolutely when not in use definitely disconnect the box.

  • edited August 2013

    @meno19 said: Thanks for the feedback.

    Look into this link: HS11000 Watt Heating System

    What I can see and have been told, they use the same type of on-off switch that you linked to before.... and also look on the price..... ;-)

    I shall personally use this on-off switch that can break up to 30 amp/240 volt single phase under full load (what a have been told) in my "simple" home made control panel.... But I haven't used it yet, so I really don't know if they are good ....

    Cheers

  • So the pot that came with my DIY kit blew up tonight. It was at full bore heating up the still when I decided to turn it off as I had to leave it for a while. When I turned the dial down, the power did not go down. Confused, I turned it up and down one more time and then blam! A big spark and crack...no more power. I took the box apart and the pot was the one component that smelled burnt so I'm guessing that's the culprit.

    I have 2 questions: 1. Do you think I did anything wrong or do pots just occasionally burn out? I had a master electrician go over the whole system and he said it was fine. Are there ways of "driving" a still that are more/less hard on a pot? 2. Can you tell me the specs I would need on a replacement pot? I'll happily buy a replacement from Stilldragon if I need to but I kinda wanted to get another pot tomorrow to not lose the 10 gallons of wash currently sitting in the still. It is labeled 470k and I can't read any of the other markings like Amps, etc. I know that Radio Shack tends to only have pots in increments of 500k or so.

    To be clear, I'm not criticizing the quality of the DIY kit. I've run 50+ batches with the kit with no problem. I'm just trying to figure out what went wrong in case it's something I can avoid doing again.

    Thanks, Badger

  • the 500k from radio shack will be fine. Model # 271-0002

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  • Do you guys fit heatsinks under your SSR's?

  • Sure do OD :) I got one of Big Pa's deluxe controllers as well as a DIY. You can't beat that price for the DIY!

  • When buying pots for SSR control they need to be at least 2 watt rating. A lot sold by the general electronics stores are only 1/4w which will burn out after a bit of use.

  • Another question regarding the pot connections. Are the last 2 connectors both connected together and then connected to the ssr? The 1st connection goes to the bottom left of the ssr.

  • a pot has three legs

    two outside ones - fixed ie 0 (a) and 100 (b)

    the middle one has a variable value. ? (w)

    when w is set to say 64, (the resistance between a and w) the resistance of w and b will be 36

    image

    yes - you can connect the unused leg to w

    potentiometer1.gif
    472 x 323 - 9K
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