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A small Commercially Distillery built in Sweden from scratch, adapted to Swedish Laws and Regulation

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  • edited August 2013

    I havent have time to polished it up yet ( 8" big so a can do it later), it is tig welding this from outside and put it together and transport it to my place.

    I have 2pc sensor in this last plate space befor refluxcooler and that is becouse a by my controll panel from swede before he have refluxcooler funtion in his controll panel so a need 2pc panels to get all of this funtions... and 1pc more sensor...

    later when all is finnish, then it shall be taken apart and a shall polish this little 60 gallon "test" plant to max, in and outside... even all copper parts on it, but my big plant shall not be polish, there shall all copper parts gets relly dark. I like the contrast. ;-)

    Cheers

  • Can it not be passivated after the fact?

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  • edited August 2013

    Yes, with polish or some syra-pasta-beta that you put on and wash away with water...

  • edited August 2013

    Or you can use one of this little machine for that: Antox - Betmaskin Isojet Cleaner 3 (PDF)

    Cheers

  • @harley said: I havent have time to polished it up yet ( 8" big so a can do it later), it is tig welding this from outside and put it together and transport it to my place.

    I have 2pc sensor in this last plate space befor refluxcooler and that is becouse a by my controll panel from swede before he have refluxcooler funtion in his controll panel so a need 2pc panels to get all of this funtions... and 1pc more sensor...

    later when all is finnish, then it shall be taken apart and a shall polish this little 60 gallon "test" plant to max, in and outside... even all copper parts on it, but my big plant shall not be polish, there shall all copper parts gets relly dark. I like the contrast. ;-)

    Cheers

    Ok, indeed, with a 8" dia you can do it afterwards, but with smaller diameters and when you can not reach the welding the only option is backing gas. This is common practice in the dairy industry.

  • Yes a now, this is "one" of the reason that a love copper to work with, and copper is much easier and a hell lot of faster to hard solder (pure copper with 2% pure silver in it)... than tig welding ss...

    Cheers

  • edited August 2013

    @Myles said: Harley, Your reflux condenser has quite a big volume relative to the coolant path through it. Do you not think you might need baffle plates to force the coolant to take a Z shaped path between the inlet and outlet?

    There is a possibility that the coolant might take a relatively direct diagonal path and the coolant might not mix very well in the extremities opposite the inlet and outlet.

    A lot depends on your coolant flow rate, but at low flows it might be an issue. The alternative might be a single plate just above the inlet with holes a few mm bigger than each vapour tube. This would redirect the coolant to flow vertically around each vapour tube.

    I don't know if it is needed but it is just something for you to think about. Although you probably have enough things to consider at the moment, and don't need me throwing more ideas your way.

    Hi Myles,

    I have about 4-5pc baffle in my 100cm hight 4" product cooler and this is for my little 60 gallons boiler.

    For my 600 liters bolier a shall have 1pc 8" cooler and 100cm hight with SD bubbelcaps copper plate( typ shootgun) to put 19pc 15mm copper pipe in and about 4-5pc baffle so the water relly must Z shaped many times....

    A dont want to have any pressur built up in this produktcooler before it is going to cool down the wapor to licuid form.... and optimum is if a can have only 1pc waterpipe from produktcooler to refluxcooler to cotroll AL waterflow befor produktcooler all and No dump of coolingwater when a destilling normally, but this shall we see later.. I have a automatic reflux panel from Swede, but water cost money here in Sweden allso...

    This is what all of the "big" manufactures have... but a relly NOT have seem any of them have BAFFLE in there refluxcooler, (i personally think that it is important to get a relly low steam speed in the refuxcooler)

    Have you ore anyellse se that any have baffle in refluxcooler ?

    Cheers

  • edited August 2013

    The effectiveness of a reflux condenser can also be measured in the difference in the temperature of the cooling water input and output cooling water temp ...

    Cheers

  • I suspect a lot has to do with the coolant flow rate in the reflux condenser.

    Did I miss-understand? Are you going to use independent coolant flow controls for the product and reflux condensers? Put warm water into the reflux condenser and only cool the vapour just enough to condense it?

    Absolutely agree about the slow vapour speed. Its not a big issue, as I suspect there are many different ways to run a reflux condenser. Some of them actually meter the reflux returned to the column and divert the excess directly back to the boiler.

  • edited August 2013

    Hi Miles, "Did I miss-understand? Are you going to use independent coolant flow controls for the product and reflux condensers?"

    NO, i shall have it all in 1pc pipe-line, first to the productcooler and then to the bottom of the refluxcooler and out in the top. but this shall swede refluxpanel controll and my Total waterflow a controll with a crane befor produktcooler and then refluxpanel controll temp in reflux and "dump" the water if it is to much flow... by a bypass... this 2pc soloniod -controllvalve is sitting in-on the pipe before refluxcooler and after productcooler....

    "Put warm water into the reflux condenser and only cool the vapour just enough to condense it?"

    Yes, the water go first throu produktcooler then to refluxcooler... so it shall be warm but a dont nowe what temp it shall have... but a shall relly looking so a dont have more total water flow than a need-minimum of "dump" water... and this mean that my productcooler must be relly big and effective before, it is my refluxcoler "need" that set the flow-speed of all coolingwater...if i dont what to have a lot of "dump"-bypass water....

    "Absolutely agree about the slow vapour speed. Its not a big issue, as I suspect there are many different ways to run a reflux condenser. Some of them actually meter the reflux returned to the column and divert the excess directly back to the boiler."

    I have put some time now and relly looking in to this with refluxcooler and my personally oponion is that it can note be to "big ore long" ore to effective if you only can controll watertemp in it exact.... and that a can with a refluxpanel... a hope...

    Exampel, if a want vodka, then a set my temp for the Water in my refluxcooler to about 78,2 degres celscius...

    I am note sure that a can run my 20pc hight sieve plates column in that way that most of you others is doing, with full reflux in about 30 minutes before a start to collekt foreshot and so.. i think that a shall have problem with to much reflux licuid on the middle and lower plates... but this a shall se later.

    NO of the bigger column is running like this with full reflux longer than it takes to fill all the plates, and a think that this is why the run it with "normal" reflux after all plates is full...

    Cheers

  • Exampel, if a want vodka, then a set my temp for the Water in my refluxcooler to about 78,2 degres celscius...

    Í think if your water in your refluxcooler = 78 you will have no reflux at all :-?

  • @moscca said: Exampel, if a want vodka, then a set my temp for the Water in my refluxcooler to about 78,2 degres celscius...

    Í think if your water in your refluxcooler = 78 you will have no reflux at all :-?

    Hi Moscca,

    I relly dont nowe this before a have try, but i think that depends on the temp on the top plate if it shall be any reflux att all with that watertemp, so before a have try this refluxpanel to max and test all settings temp a relly dont nowe it, remember that a have 20pc plates so a dont need to reflux so hard för the % a have that alredy on top plate.

    I think that every column and refluxcooler need defferents setting temp depending on how effective- howe good they are to take care of steam, but my first starttemp shall be 78,2 and a must start somevere...

    But a shall try to showe you all this when am up and running later...

    Cheers

  • edited August 2013

    Product cooler in 8” with 9pc inside baffle to relly get all cooling water to Z shaped path and about 100-120cm hight…

    19pc 15mm copper pipe that are 13mm inside and all this pipe together is about 1,4 time more volume than in a 2” pipe and also more volume than 23pc bubbelcaps…

    So this is good up to 12” column and even bigger a think…

    image

    Ps: i built-pay my equipment only one time( okey, maybe more time ;-) ), but the waterbill come every month ;-)

    Cheers

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  • edited August 2013

    I can't remember where I first saw this described (and this is a bad / quick drawing) but have you thought of this system using a header tank for the reflux cooler. This gives constant head height and reduced pressure to the reflux cooler, independent of pressure to the product cooler. Also lets you put a cooler in the product cooler output line to recirculate water. If you wish to do so.

    Only the hot water from the reflux cooler is lost (as it might not be cost effective to re-cool that) as it is much hotter than the output of the product cooler. Or put it through another heat exchanger first to strip the heat into your domestic hot water.

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  • edited August 2013

    Now I see how it is structured, it took a while to see ....

    A recirculation tank being filled with a level switch and push yourself to the reflux condenser by a higher elevation through the flow tank with a pump ..

    This solution can be very good, I just have to try with the easiest way first, and would it not work well, it may well be a similar solution like this ....

    Thanks so much for the picture.

    Cheers

  • A low cirkulation pump to fill the uper tank that feed the refluxcooler... Nowe it,s right...

    Cheers

  • edited August 2013

    Fabricate yours own bubbelcaps in larger sizes.

    I've thought about making my own bubbelcaps primarily suitable for an 8 "200mm column and with" only "1st giant bubble caps per plate and also a bigger caps that fitting a 12" 300mm column and then even with only 1st giant bubbelcaps ... 10 "250mm column I skip ....

    Now I have seen a solution on how I should be able to self-produce bubbelcaps in any size, hight and angle that I want to ... Check themselves, everything more or less is needed is a wood or metal lathe and a little imagination ....

    Inner tube - riser is exactly as it sounds an inner tube and can be made by "rolled plate" in any size ...

    As I've written before: Count on flow volumes EVERYWERE before so it is "right all the way" from the beginning ....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHvtieU4-7Y

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLuoE_xSMsU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLuoE_xSMsU

    Cheers

  • edited August 2013

    Update: Now I have spent a few more hours to put me into the reflux condenser to my effects and that means some changes in vapor rate to obtain the maximum amount of cooling water and best possibel conditions for my reflux panel to control this reflux condenser exactly

    This solution I believe to be optimal for me in 8 "and it is completely in copper that has the best managerial ability .... and to my 12 "column so I increase only in the number of tubes around this "original" model ...

    image image

    Cheers

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  • edited August 2013

    @RedDoorDistillery This is what a ment with returcup in the air and all plate area active.

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  • Nice solution to still have height adjustable of the DC.

  • edited August 2013

    Tanks, but this is 1,5mm hole in 4mm pattern= about 1770pc hole and give about 10% - max.... if you change pattern to 5mm= 1150-1200pc hole than it should give about 7-7,5%... and that is something that a must try and se howe much power it need...

    A stans all hole, so 1,5mm is 1,5mm and note 10% more or less in hole size... Cheers

  • edited August 2013

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCiKdHMDbEo

    Intressting way, and it is in kina.... maybe they can stans out big coppercaps typ 5"-120mm caps and with a height of about 50mm to a 8"-200mm column allso.... Only a tips...

    To bad that Fester note can se youtub from kina....

    Cheers

  • @punkin

    look in my post before this and take a relly good look in that little youtub video...

    Cheers

  • edited August 2013

    @Law_Of_Ohms said: lol, no safety...

    Like it was in sweden for about 100 years ago... but it is going fast and they are doing it cheap (a think) and a good modell of a big bubbelcap in copper it lokks like.... only slit-slot left to fix... and this is a good and chaep way to go in the little bigger colonsize with only 1pc big bubbelcaps i think, all germans manufakture is doing this...

  • edited August 2013

    A little time to spare.

    So it was a sketch on an 8 "- 203mm bubbelcaps plate (basic) with only 1st giant bubbelcaps, yes all flows - volumes are calculated, except the low sawtooth pattern ... There is also a place to pick up a CIP head in the back for washing after distillation and also pipes on side for emptying the plates after distillation.

    This giant bubbelcaps learn form your own press lathe or punch. This a shall test and compare with my other plate design....

    And yes, this plate design is possibel to have in glass column in sektions or ss.....

    Cheers

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  • Very nice harley, I'm thinking also on 1 giant bubble cap. I was thinking of making 2 moulds of hard wood to give the cap shape. I have a 70 ton press at work so that should be a piece of cake with 2 mm copper plates. I found some giant copper caps on the web but have to look it up. I'm gatting my stuff together to build a 3 bubble plate column for rum with 210 inside diameter. will post some pics later. It will clean much better 1 giant cap then 20 small ones, expecially with molasses.

    M-

  • Would be drilling small holes at the lower end of the cap make up for the sawtooth pattern. I think it will be easier expecially with a giant cap.

  • I don't get it. One giant bubble cap to replace many?
    Sure it would be cheaper to produce but the idea is to "infuse" the fluid bed with as many bubbles as possible (I'm probably not phrasing that correctly).
    There is so much inactive surface area on the plate with just one giant bubble cap I have to question the logic. It would be the same as using smaller bubble caps but simply reducing the number of them?
    Conventional wisdom is that about 1/2 of the plate be covered with caps and the other half covered with fluid. One giant cap can certainly do this but I'm confused because with the giant cap fully 1/2 of the plate is dry under the cap and only one ring of bubbles around a single cap exists. It just seems that many small caps would produce a denser bubble spread into the fluid bed.

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