StillDragon® Community Forum

Welcome!

Be part of our community & join our international next generation forum now!

In this Discussion

ProCaps vs Mini Bubble Caps for a 200L Boiler and T Section Addition Advice

TAD
edited July 2015 in Usage

Hi Everyone,

We have recently started distilling using our Still Dash 4 (with 4 mini plates) and we would like to add 2 T sections with plates to start getting a "cleaner alcohol". My question is a few fold and any assistance or advice would really be appreciated!

We are currently getting +/- 3 litres an hour from our still which seems a bit on the low side to me - I have adjusted water to the main condenser etc and this is about the fastest I can go with out smearing the tails into the hearts (the still is heated using 2 x 4 kW elements and once it reaches a boil one element is switched off and the remaining element is regulated using a wattage regulator - if I increase the wattage regulator too much then the plates flood). I spoke to StillDragon in Europe (where I need to order the additional two sections) and they suggested the pro plates and have indicated that this will give more litres output per hour - what are you getting if you are using the mini plates or the pro plates? Has anyone changed from mini plates to pro plates and found a difference?

With the addition of the two sections will this help the speed at allow only the flavour - if I purchase the two sections with the pro caps and leave the others with the mini caps will this change anything?

I am looking forward to getting some input!

Thanks so much!!!

TAD

«1

Comments

  • Interesting question. ProCaps can cope with more power than mini caps - that has been established previously.

    In theory though your max column speed is limited by the slowest component. This will be one of the mini cap plates.

    Position in the column could influence things but i havent mixed plates on the same column so can't say. Someone else may be able to give you an answer.

  • TAD
    edited July 2015

    Thanks for the input @Myles.

    Good point on the speed been limited by the slowest component at this point the mini bubble plates - if I changed the plates all to pro caps what do you think the speed would increase by per hour?

  • What percentage are you collecting at?

  • TAD
    edited July 2015

    Hi @grim - I am collecting at 80% ABV

  • With a 4" ProCap configuration you should be expecting to have a maximum operation in the region of 5 to 6 litres per hour on about 6kW during the run.

    A bit more or less dependent on your product ABV. 6 plates should give you a rock steady hearts run at whatever product quality you choose to take.

    6 x 4" ProCaps is exactly what I hope to run myself when I take my gear out of storage. However, I may run a bit slower, will just need to wait and see.

    Still hoping someone will chip in with info on a mixed plate column. A few folks have mixed perforated and cap plates, but not sure if anyone has combined both cap styles in the same column.

    Gut reaction would be to put mini caps higher than the ProCaps.

  • @TAD said: Thanks for the input Myles.

    Good point on the speed been limited by the slowest component at this point the mini bubble plates - if I changed the plates all to pro caps what do you think the speed would increase by per hour?

    Significant improvement in speed. We typically publish a no less than 30% improvement in collection speed. But there are operators that have talked about a 50% increase on the 8" systems.

    Bear in mind that increased speeds are not necessarily going to translate to a quality product. Your mileage may vary.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • I have dealt with this question with a couple of customers lately. The solution i have offered has been to replace one of the regular caps on each plate with an extra downcomer so that the plate runs 4 caps and two DC's on each of the regular plates. Then place the Procap plates on the top as the top plates seem to be where flooding occurs to start with.

    I haven't had a lot of feedback even though twice lately i've sent DC's out but it's a cheap enough solution to try on one plate to start with.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Yes, the problem is we barely get any feedback from our customers, so there is always a lot of guessing and experimentation involved.

    @punkin's hints are definitely good ones, it would make sense to add another downcomer to regular (mini) bubble plates to be able to drive them harder without flooding, then put the regular bubble plates below the ProCap plates, because a column driven hard with increased reflux starts flooding from the top (since the deplegmator at the top is the reflux generator).

    I'm not sure right now, but wasn't it @Sadi who has done mixed plates experiments?

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • edited July 2015

    @SDeurope - I think @Sadi did a bunch of test.

  • edited July 2015

    I think @Sadi's tests were mixing perforated and cap plates but will have a look. There were some side by side mini cap vs ProCap tests done on a double column rig I think.

  • Increasing the wattage beyond a certain point for ANY column size will result in flooding, this is a given.

    You are throwing 8kW at a 4" column, it will always flood; even with pro caps.
    If you want the throughput rates that 8kW can deliver then you need a 6" procap solution I'm thinking.

    I'm using a 6" old variant and I collect neutral using 4.2kW with 5 plates and a packed section. Heat up at 7.2kW.

    The 4" horse at that speed has been flogged to death. :)

  • edited July 2015

    @TAD, @Sadi's experiments can be found here.

    Your Place to be >>> www.StillDragon.org <<< Home of the StillDragon® Community Forum

  • TAD
    edited July 2015

    @Moonshine, thank you for the feedback.

  • @TheMechWarrior

    Thanks for your feedback - I only use 8kw to bring the product to the boil and then I reduce to 4kw which is regulated @ 50% - I have only experienced flooding once - luckily. My concern is that I am only collecting at 3litres an hour and if I add another two sections I will still be collecting at the 3 litres and hour and if I mix the two new sections as pro caps with the old 4 sections of mini caps it will confuse matters!?

  • TAD
    edited July 2015

    @Smaug - thank-you for your input. So I will def get an increase in collection speed which is great - do you think I will still get an increase if I do as @punkin and @SDeurope suggested with changing the mini caps to an extra downcomer and the new section with the pro caps?

    Obviously first prize will be changing everything to pro caps but I am loathe to have four mini cap plates that have been used a handful of times going to waste

  • why not resell the mini caps?

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • @TheMechWarrior said:

    You are throwing 8kW at a 4" column, it will always flood; even with pro caps.
    If you want the throughput rates that 8kW can deliver then you need a 6" procap solution I'm thinking.

    I'm using a 6" old variant and I collect neutral using 4.2kW with 5 plates and a packed section. Heat up at 7.2kW.

    Actually this is a nice point, the 4" is available with both cap options. The mini cap version will run nicely at lower power levels than the ProCap version.

    I tend to agree that if you have 8kW available, then you may be in a situation where you can consider if you would be better off with the 5" or 6" column.

    The 4" ProCap is a slightly unusual beast in my view. To push 3 ProCaps per plate to their full speed potential, you are probably getting close to the max power levels for a domestic supply. Running slower than maximum speed, you are probably just fine.

    @TheMechWarrior when running flavoured product on that 6" column how much power are you using? Close to your full 7.2kW?

  • @TAD said: Obviously first prize will be changing everything to pro caps but I am loathe to have four mini cap plates that have been used a handful of times going to waste

    Going all ProCap would certainly be the best option, it should not be hard to sell four regular plates + caps, I've heard there is quite a market for second hand StillDragon gear (at least the few offers we have spotted were always sold quickly).

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • We have had a few pro customers replace a bubble cap in order to have the extra downcomer. Ultimately they remained unsatisfied with the collection speed. Flooding seemed to ease but collection speeds were not improved.

    Getting all of the plates to behave correctly by lowering your power and running the system with a bit more restraint will make the system run faster. It takes a few practice runs and patience to make the system optimally comply.

    At the pro level, the 4" is best suited for recipe development imo.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • edited July 2015

    @Smaug said: At the pro level, the 4" is best suited for recipe development imo.

    I am going to disagree just a little bit with you there.
    At the pro level for recipe development I would say a 5" minimum, and leave the 4" for the home or hobby user who wishes run the biggest domestic rig that they can. ;)

  • I also think that 5" or 6" would fit better since for example the 6" rig can give you 12 to 15 liters/hour. Now we are talking.... B-)

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • edited July 2015

    So you are taking off at 80% and want to take off faster, at a higher abv?

    Assuming you can't just replace the entire column, why not simply add 1 or 2 additional procap plates to the existing stack? I don't see why you would replace plates and sell them, just my 2 cents. If you are considering replacing all the plates, just go larger. Makes more sense than spending a ton of money for an incremental upgrade (that still has limits).

    More plates let you run a lower reflux ratio to output a given percentage, meaning you can take off at a faster rate, for a given power input. However, you do hit a point where you'll find it hard to take off at a lower percentage.

    Like everyone has said though, you are going to hit the speed limit that is set by the 4" column diameter. Your vapor speed will eventually get so high that you are driving entrainment flooding at the top plates, no way around that. The column diameter will become a speed limiter, regardless of the kinds of plates.

    The other option, I'm surprised nobody mentioned, is to strip first. Assuming you have enough condenser to strip full out, you might find time saving over multiple batches. You may not output faster, but you'll be spending less time overall. Your spirit run is going to be one long day though, no way around that.

  • edited July 2015

    My big question is why is he only getting an output of 80% even running 3 plates I struggled to get under 90% (2400W).

    With 4800W I can easily flood my whole column and still have 90%+ coming out (very smeared however).

    I am running 4-4.5 L/h on a spirit run with about 2400-2800W and regular plates no issue so 3 L/h is really slow.

    If i went to ProCaps I would be looking at 5-6 L/h.

    Part of me is now thinking I should have gone to 6" haha (5" wasn't around when I got my current rig).

    Might look into 6" if I get a 200L boiler but right now I haven't completely outgrown my 4".

    Quick question but why do you need faster output? Atm I can easily knock out 30L (10%) in about 3-4 hours.

  • Thank-you everyone for your comments. After some research I agree a 6" would be more suited to a professional distillery however I am sad to say that I was sold the 4" from a distributor who assured me that the 4" would be more than adequate for my requirements - which is obviously not the case. We are a small craft distillery and after the heavy investment in many other aspects changing stills right now is not an option but definitely something I will look into in the the next 6 months. I think changing to pro plates looks like the best interim step to the bigger configurations!

    @grim I am taking off @ 80% above because the taste is awesome at that % I can easily get it up to over 90% by increasing the reflux which does slow the collection down by about 500ml per hour. I dont really want to take off at a higher % Will the mix of two additional sections with pro caps and the mini bubble plates cause any foreseeable complications?

    @clickeral - She ;) not he is happy with the 80% flavour profile as I mentioned above. Very impressive that you can get 30l in 3-4 hours at my current collection rate it would take me 10 hours to collect 30 litres!?

  • edited July 2015

    @TAD said: however I am sad to say that I was sold the 4" from a distributor who assured me that the 4" would be more than adequate for my requirements - which is obviously not the case.

    To clarify that statement, @TAD has NOT bought her still from an authorized StillDragon® Distributor of the StillDragon® Organization, but that's not her fault as she just did not know better at that time.

    Your Place to be >>> www.StillDragon.org <<< Home of the StillDragon® Community Forum

  • and another lady distiller - watch out boys, we are getting close.... :)>-

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • I have been running 4 plates of ProCaps on my 5" Dash for about a month now and would recommend them . I never used the other bubble caps so I can't compare but the ProCaps pretty much take the flooding issue off of the table (at least in my situation). I do have a small boiler, about 50l and run a 5,500w element so my situation is kind of odd but a larger column will get you more product per hour. I prefer to take my rums and whiskeys off at a higher number, over 90% . I know I am losing flavor but really like the clean tastes and less aging times.

    I can't imagine anyone using a 4" for a pro application but the ProCaps might speed things up a bit. Good luck.

  • @Clickeral said: My big question is why is he only getting an output of 80% even running 3 plates I struggled to get under 90% (2400W).

    With 4800W I can easily flood my whole column and still have 90%+ coming out (very smeared however).

    I am running 4-4.5 L/h on a spirit run with about 2400-2800W and regular plates no issue so 3 L/h is really slow.

    If i went to ProCaps I would be looking at 5-6 L/h.

    Part of me is now thinking I should have gone to 6" haha (5" wasn't around when I got my current rig).

    Might look into 6" if I get a 200L boiler but right now I haven't completely outgrown my 4".

    Quick question but why do you need faster output? Atm I can easily knock out 30L (10%) in about 3-4 hours.

    I won't be stocking the 6" into the future (although i can special order it), but i have enough bits here to build one (i have 4 tees only) and would be happy to talk about running it out.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Wow. Smaug is discontinuing the 5" and you the 6". Definitely different demands in different areas.

  • edited July 2015

    I hear that odd numbers make for rough distillate, unless you are into that fibonacci thing, then even numbers are bad. Whatever you do, don't make a 13" column.

Sign In or Register to comment.