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Crystal Dragon vs. Dash 2

Hello peoples,

I am new to this hobby having been gifted a very crude gas fired 30L-ish still from a family friend with dementia. As he can't explain to me how to use it, I initially was searching the web trying to learn how to use it which only created more questions. I realized that the setup was a bit average and figured I'd enjoy the project of building a new copper still then realized that for the cost of materials my time etc I was better off just buying a nice unit. So I did the rounds of the brewshops and they all pointed towards the T500 or similar based on a 30L boiler. Then I came across the Hillbilly Flute and thought that looks the business!! Then YouTube provided me with a comparison between the HB Flute and the Dash 2. So I ended up contacting @punkin who was extremely helpful and patient with my questions. He then threw a spanner in the works and suggested the Crystal Dragon as it is just so pretty and makes the distilling process quite visual.

So I am now trying to decide which way to go.

My spirit preference is dark rum, bourbon and honey bourbon, but I'll drink just about anything. I can see myself making neutral and using essences to get a selection of drinkables, but would really like to make rum and bourbon and age it to satisfy my creative mind. I would also like to acquire a gin basket down the track to experiment with. Will the weight hanging off the side of a CD be an issue?

Now that you have a bit of an overview of what I want to achieve, which would you choose?? Bear in mind that I will probably be swapping numbers of plates etc to run as a pot or plated column depending on what I am trying to make. Long term I would like to make AG and sour mash type washes as my experience builds to make true bourbons etc. I am also in fruit country and have the desire to play around with that also, is that possible with the exposed type elements in the milk can boiler?? Or will it just burn?? Could i run a burner for those type situations on the same milk can??

I am considering the bells and whistles 6 plate package in either CD or Dash2 unless you can think of a better fit?

I like the ruggedness of SS construction but that isn't a deal breaker.
Thanks in advance
JR

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Comments

  • edited May 2015

    @Johnboy said: I can see myself making neutral and using essences to get a selection of drinkables, but would really like to make rum and bourbon and age it to satisfy my creative mind.

    Based on what you are saying in your post, you are already far beyond essences, so don't sell yourself short. You seem plenty willing to experiment, and that's probably the biggest indicator of success. There isn't anything outside of your grasp. I'll leave the equipment bit up to the other folks, but you can't go wrong here if it's flexibility that you are looking for.

  • I'm kinda having the same dilemma as you. Pretty much decided on the CD if I can get it in the size that I want. If not, then I will go with the Dash. Will add a packed column to the top for neutrals and run 4 plates for rum and whisky. Both have great reviews and you can't go wrong with either. I'm in a holding pattern for mine. Ready to drop everything and visit Smaug when he says its time.

  • edited May 2015

    The question comes up a bit, and you have probably already heard my opinion, but:

    Crystal Dragon

    Pros

    Beautiful presentation, being able to easily see the reflux ratio and watch it from across the room while working on something else, easy for non distillers to understand what's going on.

    Cons

    More delicate and the edges of the glass can chip when frequently disassembling to change if care is not taken, you need a spanner to undo the top six acorn nuts to disassemble and remove plates rather than just a clamp, not dishwasher safe because of chipping.

    Dash

    Pros

    Equally beautiful if stainless is your thing, available in brass sight glass kits or stainless screw on lenses, robust and dishwasher safe, easy to assemble and disassemble, longevity.

    Cons

    Not as simple to see what's going on with reflux rates etc, you need to look through a sightglass and depending on ambient light, may need a torch.

    I'm also with @grim, i have never used an essence, but i have never tried to make zambucca or grand marnier either.
    I have found plenty of other uses for neutral though with macerations and infusions and redistillations like Arak, Limencello, Walnut Liquer, Thai Terror and many other original non clone type recipes.
    I have always thought the goal for me was to create something in the same vein as someones favourite spirit, but better rather than try and clone it.
    Either that or something different but better B-)

    I know i haven't been any help in steering your decision, but hopefully i've given you some information that will allow you to make it for your own preferences. :-bd

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • What about if i want to make spirits from fruit i.e. apples, plums, cherries, peaches, etc. Will the elements burn/catch? Or is it just a case of filtering any solids out of the ferment?

  • I'll leave that to someone who has done it mate. All my fruit has been done on gas.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Will running gas under the milk can cause damage to the elements?

  • edited May 2015

    You'd need to stop the flame running up the sides and contacting the element guards, but it certainly won't hurt the elements. You can take the elements and guards out just by undoing a TC anyway and put an end cap in there..

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Easy fixed then

  • read @Sadi's thread on his Crystal dragon and his other gear... may show you how valuable modular is...

  • edited May 2015

    FWIW - I attach my GB4 gin basket to a 2"x4"x2" torpedo, which is mounted to my sanke keg boiler via 2" triclamp. I use the torpedo because I don't have any straight 2" triclamp pipe to connect the gin basket to the boiler with.

    The gin basket is pretty heavy and is connected offset from center, but the triclamp stainless steel connections are robust enough to handle the moment with ease.

    If you're into gin making you'll LOVE the GB4. I give it my highest recommendation. It is a great piece of machinery.

    You'll need some good neutral as the gin base spirit.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • Would you think it to heavy to swing off a CD be better on a Dash ?

  • edited May 2015

    I would not hang it off of a glass still. You will only need to get the gin basket up above the boiler by about 6" or so, so a short piece of TC pipe, or a concentric reducer will be all you will need (plus a couple of 90 bends and a product conderser). Take a look at the pictures of various configurations in the SD Gin Basket Operations Manual (PDF).

    I think it is best to run the infusions on a base spirit that has already had the cuts made. Trying to make cuts on an infusion run will waste botanical volatiles that you want in your gin.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • I also think, that the best gin is made of very pure neutral. So I don't need plates for the gin making process. The beauty of modular is: you can do it all ;)

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • @Johnboy said: Would you think it to heavy to swing off a CD be better on a Dash ?

    It could be added to a Crystal Dragon, and it is done even on the large ones (see image below), but as others said before a dedicated gin still using diluted NGS as base alcohol in combination with maceration just makes more sense than going from mash/wash directly to gin. If adding a GB4 to a CD I would strongly recommend using weight support (like with ceiling suspension) to the 180° bend at the top or the 90° bend after the basket.

    image

    stilldragon_8_inch_crystal_dragon_with_aroma_basket_kit_gb4.jpg
    600 x 2023 - 186K

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • cause that 90 elbow used as a prop against the tank is more like something you would see in my pictures ;-)

    Oh, and Gin comes from any clean spirit, not required to be neutral by anyone except for Webster, and they don't really count...

  • edited May 2015

    We ended up running a threaded rod up to the ceiling joists and suspending the cross-pipe that connects the 90 from the column to the 90 down to the product condenser. To make it look pretty, we put a stainless sheath over the threaded rod. I could hang from the parrot if I wanted to.

  • edited May 2015

    Bad old pic but close enough.

    image

    image.jpg
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  • @grim said: Bad old pic but close enough.

    image

    The gin basket and parrot are the new SD Crystal Stealth design... B-)

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • edited May 2015

    It's just waiting there for an 8" GB, just WAITING, please for the love of god BOLT IT ON.

    Was more to the point on the bigger diameter boilers, you are going to need to hang it off the ceiling or support off the floor. No way can the column support the weight of the plumbing, gin basket, and large condenser.

    Even with an empty condenser, it pulled the column off plumb by a half an inch. It wasn't the column that was was causing the flex, but the top of the boiler.

    Hanging because we bailed on the table-mount setup for the condenser, it wasn't rigid enough, too much wiggle. Would have needed to bolt it to the floor.

    Granted, that's a hell of a lot of 4" diameter pipe, and the big 4" x 1m condenser, and other various bits, plus it's got to hang way off the side due to the boiler diameter.

  • just use a 120L boiler as a GB ;-)

  • @CothermanDistilling said: just use a 120L boiler as a GB ;-)

    Ha

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • Thought that was the thumper?

  • is there much of a difference other than liquid level?

  • The CD'a are supported by the rods not the glass. The only weight on the glass should be the tension to snug the gaskets in and then the locknuts provide transfer to the rods.

    Having said that, either using a dedicated gin section instead of the column or bracing the condensor, 180 or extension if using the GB4 directly connected to the still.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Just my opinion but any off centre line weight should be supported. Putting all the load on to the boiler and column joints is asking a lot. As for any of the gin or genever style products, i favour a dedicated still and a boiler charged with a diluted finished base spirit from a prior run. Neutral, grain or malted grain, make your base spirit first, then make your gin or genever.

  • I see a new SD counterweight being offered... the kit includes a Tee and another gin basket ;-)

  • So considering that I wish to make mainly bourbon and rum, then look at a gin basket down the track do I need 6 plates or will 4 be enough then add 2+ more when I start trying to make excellent neutral for use with the gin basket.

  • 4 is plenty if you operate the still correctly, you can make gin from a double pot-stilled whiskey if it is the best of the hearts...

    It does not need to be neutral to make gin with... you can start with clean whiskey, clean brandy, or clean distillate from any fermented product (apples, milk whey, etc..). To test, taste your product! Taste it at 80 proof or whatever, mix it with water or a traditional mixer (cranberry, soda, juice, etc), if it tastes good, and it does not have heads or tails noticeable, you can run it through a gin basket..

  • Mixers?
    Como se dice en ingles,"mixers"?

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • OK, smart alec..

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