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Packed Column Size ?

I am new to the hobby and want to acquire an equipment that will allow me to run bubble plates, a 1m refluxed packed column and bubble-packed combos. I plan on running all as CMs. My objective for the column is not to produce absolute neutral but rather delicately flavored vodkas, white rums, gin base and fruit schnapps.

What is clear now is that I will purchase a Dash 1.

For the packed column, I considered 2", 3" and 4" sizes. After doing various calculations it seem that the 4" column actually comes in the cheapest considering that I will have all the parts from the Dash. I understand that packing will be a bit more expensive, but I can live with that.

I have a 50 L keg boiler with a 4" welded ferrule and a controlled 5.5kW element. I consider speed to be an important element.

My questions:

  • Are there some obvious downsides to a 4" column, with regards to a 2" or 3"?
  • Does it retain a lot of liquid?
  • Is is still possible to run a 20-25 L wash in a 4" column?

Best Answer

  • BS, if I may call you that, a Dash2 with 6 plates will give a better "delicately flavored vodkas, white rums, gin base and fruit schnapps" because the 2 extra plates, vs a Dash1, will do just exactly that.

    "Are there some obvious downsides to a 4" column, with regards to a 2" or 3"?"
    None, 4" just runs faster than a smaller diameter size.

    "Does it retain a lot of liquid?"
    Yes, there is some liquid on the plates after distilling. But we are modular so you can break down your Dash into pieces if you wish and run them through your dishwasher. Can you do that with any other still?

    "Is is still possible to run a 20-25 L wash in a 4" column?" Absolutely. Me, us, everybody do it all the time.

Answers

  • No downsides, speed should be good, no liquid retention, get it and have fun... Where are you located? Country wise?

  • edited July 2013

    Hi Lloyd and thanks for the rapid response. Let's say that I am decided on the 4" column.

    Lets consider the 3 following configurations:

    4 bubble plates (a dash 1) + 1 x 50 cm 4" column packed with copper mesh
    6 bubble plates (a dash 2)
    2x 50 cm (1m) 4" column packed with copper mesh

    All CM with a 4" dephelgmator on top

    In any case, this still would be built from Still Dragon Parts.

    Would you say that any of these configurations would perform better for the intended purpose? ("delicately flavored vodkas, white rums, gin base and fruit schnapps")

    About the liquid retention, I was more worried about loss of product (yield) than cleaning.

  • edited July 2013

    Hopefully Rosco or Philter will chime in here as they both run this configuration. But my understanding from chatting to them is that they get 95%+ from 2- 4 plates plus the packed section and they can tune the run speed with either the power control or the CM control to alter the flavour carryover from virtually none to fairly wide delicate flavours like white rum. I think six plates and the packing section (stainless scrubbers will be much cheaper than structured mesh and scoria cheaper again) will give you as many options as possible and allow an amazing amount of control after learning to drive it with the various products you wish to make. You won't always want to use all six plates, but you will have the option. :-SS

    As far as anything being retained, you can always collect and add as feints for the next run of a similar wash or as a highlight in a different wash. We would be talking about tails mostly.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • BenStiller,

    welcome. i have a dash 1 & add a 500mm SS scrubbie packed section on top to make neutral (you will see some pics of it in the SD manual). when doing this I typically strip a couple of ferments & dilute those into the boiler for the spirit run. You could go straight from wash... The packed section does not retain much liquid at the end of the run. The beautiful thing about this hybrid setup is when I see the sight glass on the top plate changing viscosity & starting to fog, i know that tails are coming & to swap out jars quicker. By running 40l stripped wash & having a fairly long (1 hour) stabilisation / equalisation period where the still is in full reflux before taking off fores & heads, I find that I get a 1-2l fores / heads & 1-2l tails after airing for a day.

    You'd only need 2 x 50cm packed sections if you wanted really really clean neutral & had a high roof ;-)

  • Thanks Croz, dunno how i forgot about your rig.... @-)

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Thanks also Croz, [-O< . Hypothetically speaking, how much hearts would you expect from that stripped 40L wash?

    I haven't run a packed column on my Dash as yet, but I'm very keen to try it.

  • Hi Philter, I strip 2 x 40l washes then add em to both to the boiler & top up with H2O. After cuts I get about 9l @ 94-95% :D = which dilutes to about 21L @40% from memory.

  • Dang, that's good. I must be over conservative with my cuts.

    I would probably only collect 4-5 litres of hearts X( I think I may have to ease back on the power, to stop pushing the tails into the hearts.

  • edited July 2013

    What would be nice is if someone did a detailed post of a typical run with jars, times and percents and put that into cuts and finaly into yeild and description of a neutral run. If we could get a detailed post like that for each of the most popular configurations then it would give people a reference when considering new equipent or new processes or even just to compare to their existing processes.

    That's the idea of the Dragon Performance threads i start, to give people a reference point.

    Thanks for the info Croz, it often seems like people don't want to stick their heads out. :)>-

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @punkin said: What would be nice is if someone did a detailed post of a typical run with jars, times and percents and put that into cuts and finaly into yeild and description of a neutral run. If we could get a detailed post like that for each of the most popular configurations then it would give people a reference when considering new equipent or new processes or even just to compare to their existing processes.

    That's the idea of the Dragon Performance threads i start, to give people a reference point.

    Thanks for the info Croz, it often seems like people don't want to stick their heads out. :)>-

    Great idea. I'll try to do so on my next run, which will most likely be a neutral...

  • @crozdog said: Hi Philter, I strip 2 x 40l washes then add em to both to the boiler & top up with H2O. After cuts I get about 9l @ 94-95% :D = which dilutes to about 21L 40% from memory.

    What wash are you using for that Crozdog?

  • TPW. I add 1 x tsp citric acid, 2 tsp DAP & 2 crushed multivitamin tablets as well as the tomato paste. washes are probably closer to 50l in a 60l fermenter, but I only fill the boiler to about 40l. i save the left over wash to dilute the low wines in the spirit run & not waste em ;-)

  • cool ty crozdog

  • Hi Philter, I strip 2 x 40l washes then add em to both to the boiler & top up with H2O. After cuts I get about 9l @ 94-95% = which dilutes to about 21L @40% from memory.

    Croz must be a bit more conservative than me yesterday I ended up with 11.8 litres UJSM at 93-89%. Head/fores cut was 1000ml and I used only 4 plates and it took 4hrs yesterday. There was more to be had as well because I was using the flow to the RC to hold back the tails, but the flow rate was starting to get down into boka territory. Read drip drip.

    Making Vodka I use 5 plates and 500mm of scoria with copper mesh either end to hold it in. Scoria is a pain to set up and the jury is still out about the taste (it comes out really neutral). My last run was 3 X birdwatchers stripped with a pot. 5.5hours (not being careful equilibrium 15mins max) 21.4 litres 94%-89%. Again could have compensated and taken more but do the math and that is a lot of vodka.

    Next up I'm going to add a 6th plate to the mix.

    Rossco

  • @rossco, your UJSM is in the higher range to what I have read, and seem to include a lower end ABV (~65%) for flavour?

    It's great to see the differences how each operator runs their rig, and the resultant product produced. I'm interested in using scoria as well, but with 6 plates and 500mm of TC pipe, but I don't have the roof height :(

    I'm on a mission to produce a vodka/neutral as clean as I can get it - for sipping straight from the fridge, to macerate fruit and make cocktails. I'm not overly impressed with birdwatchers, but it may be the bakers yeast and fermenting temps. My Odin's cornflake whisky is very nice so far being a strip run.

    Let us know how you the 6th plate addition turns out.

  • edited July 2013

    your UJSM is in the higher range to what I have read, and seem to include a lower end ABV (~65%) for flavour?

    Sorry should have been more explicit. After the 200ml fores 800ml heads I made 15 cuts, all 88-90% cold and aired. Tails were 200ml 85% which I put in the heads jar. I diluted the whitedog down to 46% because that is what we drink here. Barrel proof that I use is 55%, I know others use 63% but my understanding is 60%+ is flammable and the cellar is under the house.

    It's great to see the differences how each operator runs their rig, and the resultant product produced. I'm interested in using scoria as well, but with 6 plates and 500mm of TC pipe, but I don't have the roof height

    I know others get higher ABVS and larger outputs than me, but I have a couple of time consuming kids and other interests. So I always run my rigs flat out. I was thinking of making a thread 'how to make great spirit in the least amount of time'. If you do the math 12% 100litres 14litres of 90%... the bubbler got all of it.

    Roof height is an issue for me as well, I will probably need to move my rig. The citrus is just ready here so I made some citrus liqueur and Kaluah this weekend. Lemonchello next weekend.

  • edited March 2014

    Great discussion! I'm on a vodka mission too and trying to figure out the best setup for this. I'm pretty well looking for neutral - a little flavor is OK but most important is to produce at 95%+ so it stays in the legal parameters for vodka. I've got a Dash 1 and tried hybridizing it with 4x18" column. Packed with copper mesh, scrubbies and lava rock alternatively. 94% was no problem but the 95% mark was elusive. The best I got was with the lava rock - I hit 95% for about a liter at a painfully slow 1L/hr then it dropped. I tried a 3x36" column on top instead with about the same results. Funny enough I was able to get 94% with just my 3" reflux column so all the plates didn't seem to be helping anything expect a bit of speed. So now I ended up with the attached setup. One plate and 4x18" packed with copper and 3x36" packed with lava rock. Was able to run 95%+ at about 4L/hr. Worked better inch for column inch than 4 plates and the 3x36" section.

    So all that background - my question - has anyone else have evidence of the plates actually helping a reflux setup if I am already starting with 40% ABV low wines?

    I'm trying to decide if I go the additional 8 bubble sections and try for neutral that route or go back to fully (maybe 1 plate) reflux and convert to VM for better control? Any thoughts?

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