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Build a Vapor Management Still with StillDragon Parts only!

edited February 2015 in Usage

With some interesting discussions going on about VM type stills I'd like to see something suitable built with StillDragon parts only. I've never thought about using anything else than a CM type plated column still, so I'd like YOU to give it your best shot in this thread. ;)

  • You have already built one with StillDragon parts only? Show us some pictures!
  • You have some great ideas for this? Tell us all about it!
  • I guess 2" and 3" are both perfectly suited for that endeavor, anyone tried 4" as well?

The idea is, why not have a separate modular VM column at hands for making some great vodka or neutral. It does not have to be usable for anything else, because of course the experienced user has the proper StillDragon equipment for making other products too! :)

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Comments

  • Hi Moonshine

    For this you would need a VM output above the top of your plates or packed section but below the cooling section, if only using SD parts you would have to mount a Dephlegmator above a T piece, taking the vapour out from the side of the T trough a valve into the product cooler, I'm building one at the moment but mine will not be exclusively from SD parts.

    The majority of the column is SD parts but the output T, ball valve, reflux condensor and product condensor are all home made from copper.

    I'm not sure I like the idea of using Dephlegmator for 100% reflux at the top of a column I would want to put a cap on to be sure no vapour escaped and the hole point of one is to allow some vapour through.

  • I have everything I need to configure an all SD VM except a 2"x2"x2" T ( thermoported of course) and a 2" butterfly valve. Cost to me to upgrade around $100 + freight.

    Tempting... But you know, Sally (my home built copper VM column, Long Tall Sally) works so well already, I hate to piss her off by bringing in another VM Sheila. B-)

    FWIW - with my big baby defleg's cooling water running balls to the wall, and the heat input around 1000-1200 Watts (a guestimate on a propane-fired boiler), I can get 100% reflux on my SD 4" four plate CM. If I back off on the cooling water flow a bit I can get 92-94% distillate, but at granny-gear take off rates (<0.5L/hr).

    I'm guessing my big baby defleg running as a reflux condenser on a VM rig would be able to be left open to atmosphere with no vapor escaping out the top. I could always cap the top of the defleg with my 2" x 3/4" concentric reducer connected to my 3/4" ball valve to shut off any vapor that may try to escape out of the top of the big baby. And/or, I could stuff some copper mesh into the big baby's tubes to slow they vapor down...

    Dang it @Moonshine! I'm saving my allowance and soda bottle deposits for a glass parrots and hydrometer set. Now you got me thinking about a SD VM mod.

    Curse you Red Baron! >:)

    ;)

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • You cannot cap a valved still as you create a potential bomb. I understand the reluctance to use a stainless reflux condensor. A copper coil is traditional, but even if it is capped there needs to be a hole drilled in the cap to stop pressure build up in case of malfunction.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • edited February 2015

    You are absolutely right! Copper mesh stuffed in the defleg tubes it is then (if it ever happens).

    Would the copper mesh disqualify it from being all SD?

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • I'd like to hear from people using the SD Super Reflux Condensers, how much can they knock down? They might be the way. The alternative for height limited builds would be a horizontal shotgun condenser or a parallel (offset) standard vertical condenser.

  • @TheMechWarrior said: I'd like to hear from people using the SD Super Reflux Condensers, how much can they knock down? They might be the way. The alternative for height limited builds would be a horizontal shotgun condenser or a parallel (offset) standard vertical condenser.

    my 5" is knocking down 6kw with no issues at all, I don't have any more power to test. Water usage seems rather low so I'm guessing it could take a lot more.

  • edited February 2015

    I tried VM with SD parts last month.

    image

    I used it for my anise infusion and posted about it here

    I am impressed about how it worked. I know VM is mostly used for neutral but I think there are other possible uses.

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  • 6kW from a 5" Super Reflux, great stuff mate! Thanks for that. That gives me a lot of confidence to upgrade to a 6" super reflux myself.

  • edited February 2015

    In the old days when I was playing with an inline condenser VM option, I did have my reflux condenser atmospheric vent plumbed in to its own liebig condenser.

    image

    Liquid dripping from a condenser output is a very clear indication that you are doing something.

    If you are going to use an SD dephlegmator as a reflux condenser in the VM principle, then you can top it with a reducer and connect that vapour path to an independent condenser. Or some other means to give you a visual indication that you are over powering the dephlegmator.

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  • Like a hose from the vent and into a cup of water?

  • Possibly Lloyd, you need some means to regulate the pressure inside the reflux condenser on a VM, but it might work.

    I once built an over engineered VM that routed the air vent through the product condenser. That was a valved design and included a pressure relief valve around a physical valve - to prevent the explosive over pressure situation.

    The atmospheric vent via the product condenser did work, but you would not know you were using it unless you stuck a temperature probe in that vapour path.

  • edited February 2015

    Without having read up on the VM principle, what is the point in having the VM column open to atmospheric pressure above the dephlegmator? Only for overpressure safety or is there more to it?

    Would a capped off column e.g. by a RIMS end cap with pressure gauge and safety pressure valve (let's say for 1.5 bar) above the dephlegmator be acceptable?

    I don't like the idea that precious vapor could escape, so if capping with safety valve is still not a valid option then at least some indication to see if vapor tries to escape, like with an air lock.

    Any good sources for reading up on VM still designs?

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • The air will rise when flushed out by the heavier vapour. An airtight cap will leave your RC full of air that can't escape forcing all the vapour to the PC giving near 0% RR.

    You don't have to worry about vapour escaping if you've sized correctly.

  • @Sunshine I will try to put some links up when I can get to a real computer, its awkward from this tablet.

    To try and sumarise it, once you have taken off the heads and restabilised, the coolant is set for the main part of the run and you don't touch it again. Quality is managed by the reflux ratio via the VM valve. Again once that is set for most of the run you don't touch it.

    The still auto compensates for the changing composition and volume of the vapour stream by maintaining a constant reflux ratio, because it is splitting a vapour stream and doesn't care what the composition is. On an LM the volume of condensate changes during the run, so you have to adjust the product valve to manage the column stability.

    A conventional VM can be made to auto shutdown at onset of tails, and I believe this works with the coil controlled valvless version also.

    I DON'T know if this works if you replace the valve with a dephlegmator. I have a nagging concern that this variation might not actually work because it is a CM pretending to be a VM.

  • Oh sorry, the atmospheric vent. On these types of reflux condenser they have to be open to atmosphere. If they are not the colapsing vapour in the condenser chamber sucks air in through the product condenser. This can cause problems, more so on the LM designs than the VMs.

  • All stills are open to the atmosphere (except vacuum)? It's just that a VM has a valve so it is open to the atmosphere in two places instead of one. When the valve is closed it's open to the atmosphere in the top.
    A potstill is open to the atmosphere at the end of a condensor too, exactly the same and if the condensor is sized to the power input and there is no interruption with the coolant flow it shouldn't allow vapour to escape.

    But we are there to monitor it just in case.

    With my VM i have one of those inspection mirrors on an extendable handle that i often hold over the condensor during a run. Any escaping vapour will fog the mirror.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • The first time I ever experienced huffing coming from the liebig/product condenser on my pot still I was freaked out. Thought I was spewing clouds of ethanol vapor everywhere and was gonna blow up the whole island. Posted an emergency WTF message to a distillers forum and the answer came back to put a mirror over the outlet end of the condenser. No fog. No worries!
    WHEW! #:-S

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • One more reason not to play with open flames, I'd say. ;)

    Your Place to be >>> www.StillDragon.org <<< Home of the StillDragon® Community Forum

  • edited February 2015

    I do get non-condensable gases escaping from the top of my VM column (above the RC coil) at the beginning of a run on a wash. I suspect it is the carbon dioxide that was still dissolved in the wash being boiled off. I don't get it when I run low wines in my VM column.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • edited February 2015

    Little 2" horizontal crossflow condensor. 2" TC branch on the bottom, 1/2" bsp branch on top for a vent. Sorry bout the lousy photos.

    image

    image

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    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @Moonshine said: One more reason not to play with open flames, I'd say. ;)

    Carbon dioxide puts fires out... Shuh! 8-}

    ;)

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • Not sure what your pictures are showing @punkin

    Buffalo Bill put a death's head moth inside your condenser?

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • daddad
    edited February 2015

    Except for the CSST reflux coil, my VM is all SD available parts...I have the long 2" Shotgun Product Condenser, but the short one would have been good for a 3" column.

    The top of my CCVM is definitely open to atmosphere...I had never thought of completely capping it. Although as punkin pointed out recently I could go to less than 1:1 reflux if it were capped.

    This is the closest mine comes to being capped.

    image

    I still outside on a porch and I originally did this so I would notice a vapor escape and to keep the wind from blowing in. I have seen the bag inflate as the first heat reaches the top of the column and then never again through the run.

    As Kapea said, "I do get non-condensable gases escaping from the top of my VM column (above the RC coil) at the beginning of a run on a wash."

    I know the gases aren't etoh vapor or they would condense on the inside of the bag.

    VM Open Top.jpg
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    DAD... not yours.. ah, hell... I don't know...

  • edited March 2015

    Joe at trail town still in ridgway, co has a VM StillDragon

  • edited March 2015

    Cant find a better pic to show it, i might have something somewhere

    image

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  • edited April 2015

    Moved from a duplicate thread:

    @AceNZ said: Is anyone here running a packed VM column using SD components?

    If so, I would be interested in seeing photos or a description of what you put together.

    My rough idea: 1.0 to 1.5m or so of 2" pipe sections containing SPP packing, to a tee. Above the tee, a Big Baby condenser. Exiting to the side of the column from the tee, a 2" to 1" reducer and a stainless 1" gate valve -- or, since the reducers are out of stock in Aus, a butterfly valve. Then a 90-degree bend (with a thermowell) down, to a long shotgun condenser, reducer, and parrot.

    Previous experience along these lines, or possible refinements or improvements, would be appreciated. One thing I'm concerned about is avoiding channeling and similar problems from the reflux condenser.

    Your Place to be >>> www.StillDragon.org <<< Home of the StillDragon® Community Forum

  • I still have that crossflow condensor in the pic if you wanted to save some height too. It'd be ok on a 2" column i reckon.

    Also, i do have stock of the 2 X 1" TC fittings in female and a nipple to fit a gate valve in. I don't think a 2" butterfly valve will give you enough fine control for heads removal.
    I'll see what i can bring back from China for you.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • edited January 2023

    Have made some excellent vodka and single malt whisky with this configuration.

    image

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  • Nice setup - is that just an open dephleg condenser at the tippy top?

  • Yes, just an open dephleg with coolant water pumped from, and back to, my swimming pool with a small submersible pump. I have also stuffed loose copper mesh into the dephleg pipes to assist with condensation. I run the still at 90% reflux for vodka by controlling the offtake with the gate valve. The initial run comes off at 94% abv. For whiskey, I open the gate valve fully and once into the hearts take off down to about 75%. Good flavour so no need to alter the configuration.

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