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Stirrer, not Agitator...

I would think a stirrer for a 380L would be a beneficial accessory... a 1/5hp explosion-proof gear motor at 100-200 rpm on a sealed shaft with swing-out blades that fits through and clamps to the 2" port on boiler. Now a 3-phase one would be nice to hook up a VFD to, but not required... just to keep the still charge moving during heatup so that you can really throw power to it...

Thoughts from other 380L owners?

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Comments

  • edited January 2015

    Would a pump do it? I think it would and so does @HurdleCreek who will be taking delivery of their new 380l boiler this week with luck.

    image

    gasboiler5.jpg
    600 x 800 - 79K

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  • Yup, tangential entry back into the tank should do the trick.

    That looks like a 2" supply and return line? So I'd look to target ~10kL/h ie a turbulant flow, which is >1.5m3s. Turbulant flow is a requirement for effective CIP so your pumps should all be capable of that flowrate.

    This will turn your tank volume over 2 minutes.

  • 1.5" from memory.

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  • Thanks Punkin.

    For a 1.5" pipe your turbulent flow rate requirements are ~6kL/h.

    Cheers,

    Mech.

  • Hopefully he's reading this, if not i'll pass it on, thanks mate.

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  • edited January 2015

    Big money for a triclamp mixer with a vapor tight seal. They are nearly all for pharma use and easily run $2k or more, higher for hazardous environment ratings.

    Finding a suitable pump is not easy either, boiling wash has got to be brutal. High temp, low pH, and a solvent. Trifecta of seal destroying factors.

    The delta between the agitated and non agitated tanks is low when you consider the cost of adding it later.

  • Wouldn't a suitable alternative during warm up be steam injection? Even if that was the only thing you used it for, it might make a small steam generator a viable option.

  • you guys that suggest using pumps, I tried that, but did not trust the hose.... what kind of hose do you trust with your building not blowing up if it breaks, then the electric elements could be red hot in vapor less than a minute later??? Just curious.... technically, both are electric motors connected to an operating still... the motor already exists for the agitator, just a smaller one as to not put strain on the tank...

    Also, if you have a bit of yeast or something in your wash, a stirrer would concentrate it in the center of the whirlpool, right?

  • What about the stainless steel hosing that Lloyd can get....

  • I made a 2" TC stirrer out of 10$ of parts I had laying around and a 5/8" 316 shaft and prop I found on eBay. You don't need fold up blades, just put the impeller on inside the tank. I just have to find a suitable old Gast air motor to drive it but it now. I'll post a pic.

  • The boiler above is configured for gas operation.

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  • edited January 2015

    Regarding the concentration to the centre of the whirlpool - I promise the opposite is true. There is a very strong circulation established. Pulled in at the base of the whirlpool and thrown out at the top. My attempt used 6" lengths of chain on the end of a stainless all thread rod in a drill. Seriously impressive whirlpool.

    image

    A HUGE mistake taking it out whilst still in motion.

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  • edited January 2015

    You'd need a heavy duty chlorobutyl/epdm hose, high pressure and suction rated. Something in the Novaflex 6500 series, like 6502, etc. I've seen stainless covered PTFE/Teflon, but those probably cost a fortune, and good luck finding a few feet of it.

    Hard pipe is probably a good idea in a direct-fire situation, you can probably get most of it piped with sanitary spool and standard fittings. You'd only really need to have 1 or 2 pipes fab'ed custom, or just use very short sections of above said hose to make the pump mating connections. I'd be most comfortable with this approach, since the risk of bursting low.

  • but I then need to have an air pump or an XP pump....

    I guess I thought more 380L owners would want something like this with an xp motor on it, you undo a tri-clamp, slide it in, put the clamp back on, and plug in the cord... no buying special hose, custom welding of pipe or putting on a tangential inlet...

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  • edited January 2015

    A vapor tight seal that can withstand commercial use is a relatively complicated stack of bearings, bushings, spacers, packing, and wipers. It's not as simple as just drilling our a teflon bushing for the shaft OD and pressing it into a seat. It's got to be able to perform without self destructing (balance, registration, torque), needs to have a solid motor mount, it needs to stand up to heat, etc. There are entire companies dedicated to doing nothing but engineering these kinds of seals. If there was some sort of off the shelf stack that could be pressed into a machined housing, we'd be in business, but that would take some research, testing, and investment. How much cheaper could it be made than the existing units on the market ($2k)?

  • @CothermanDistilling said: you guys that suggest using pumps, I tried that, but did not trust the hose.... what kind of hose do you trust with your building not blowing up if it breaks, then the electric elements could be red hot in vapor less than a minute later??? Just curious.... technically, both are electric motors connected to an operating still... the motor already exists for the agitator, just a smaller one as to not put strain on the tank...

    Also, if you have a bit of yeast or something in your wash, a stirrer would concentrate it in the center of the whirlpool, right?

    I'd never contemplate a hosed solution over a solid pipe. Hose is for short duration low risk work.

    If you were to use an agitator you'd never see a whirlpool in this application, if you did the agitator was incorrectly designed. It should provide for sufficient mixing to ensure no "dead/idle" spots for the full working volume range.

    I'm not suggesting a pump is the way to go, just putting it out there for discussion as I'm pretty sure a shaft seal arrangement capable of handling high temperature ethanol vapour might be expensive?

    We could discuss the theoretical merits of each process but really to me this is simply a question of costs and aesthetics, lets sort that out first.

    It will either cost more or less and it will either look better or worse once we know those 2 items we can decide which process to go for, taking into account longevity, maintenance, running costs etc.

    The pump can be used for CIP supply for the still and associated plant gear, you'll need a CIP pump regardless. I'd suggest you have a mobile pump with the same specs as this pump and motor, so you can swap one out in a hurry if you need to.

    Both systems can be optimised to provide as much or as little agitation as you desire.

    How much for a pump solution?

    How much for an agitator solution?

    Cheers,

    Mech.

  • Maybe I should explain the reason better....hearing the elements make noise during warmup is like fingernails on a chalkboard... once some thermal induced flow is going they are fairly quiet... the shaft seal arrangement has already been designed, I don't see how that is an issue in any way whatsoever..... seemed like a real simple solution to a real simple problem...

    I can take my cheapie cordless drill on low speed and get way more movement than needed to keep the elements much quieter... a good pump on a cart could cost as much or more than the 380L boiler.... a true agitator needs a more sturdy boiler and mounting area, but a small motor5 just stirring the still charge could work on the 2" TC fitting..

    my next boiler will have an agitator, and probably be a bain marie, but this one was in my price range when I bought it, just thought others with the same boiler may have the same issue, I guess not... was hoping a bunch of people would chime in and agree and then we could have a $300 add-on to the low end boiler...

  • edited January 2015

    Use air, but not to power a mixer, just bubble air up through a sparger or carbonation stone. Going up through the bottom is probably going to give you the best result. Maybe tap and weld a small threaded fitting to the 90' off the bottom of the boiler, use 1/4" stainless pipe up to a small stainless airstone. You should be able to get a toroidal flow pretty easily. Get a good check valve and ball valve to prevent leaks.

  • I understand what you are saying Cotherman and bought a paint stirrer on special with the intention of using it exactly as you described if i went back to allgrain to prevent scortching on my gas fired boiler.

    The pump agitator solution was born of nessecity as Hurdle Creek Stills has no access to 3 phase power.

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  • edited January 2015

    We do not have 3 phase power, we are using single phase VFDs to run the agitators and mash pumps. We have some Hitachi and some Omron units. The VFDs are nice because we can slow start and speed control. The VFDs are wired with single phase 240v 30a circuits, but they don't even come close to using it. We have a 2.2kw/3hp unit for the mash pump, and a 1.5kw/2hp unit for the still agitator.

  • @CothermanDistilling I like the sound of a $300 cost, that's the first time I've heard anyone mention cost.

    You've mentioned an important aesthetic as well and that is noise, not an issue for an agitator but could be an issue for the pump. I wouldn't suggest an air pump due to the high flow, high temp and VERY high cost associated with PTFE lined stainless AODD pumps (~$15k-$30k). Not to mention diaphragm failure is guaranteed and you now require compressed air on site.

    If you can agitate your vessel with a $300 I'd jump at it.

  • @CothermanDistilling, you have my vote for a $300 TC stirrer. The best I'd ever been able to find is in the $2k range.

  • edited January 2015

    $300 is a nice target, but making one for that price? The air motor alone retails for near $300. You still need the housing, seals, shaft and impeller. The machining work and assembly of the housing alone would command over $300. I'm not sure I could build one for $300 using surplus parts and calling in favors.

    You could probably copy the Pulsair approach for much less money. Realistically what do you have? some sort of accumulator, a solenoid, a regulator.

    Cap Management and Wine Blending Systems (PDF)

    Pneumatage - A Pulsair Systems Wine Process

  • I think some of us are looking for a cheap hand operated mixer to use doing heat up.

  • Good cordless drill and paint mixer paddle, otherwise I'd say scour the classifieds, surplus, eBay for a clamp on drum mixer. I've come across great deals on small air powered Gast mixers, and little electric Lightnin' mixers.

    Bet you that you can find a nice used Lightin' mixer for under $300 if you try hard enough.

  • think about it this way, functionally, a pump is the same as the mixer, just separated from the tank... There is a motor a shaft seal, and an impeller.... and if the seal freaks people out, how do they live with the same seal on a pump that is pumping the same liquid? 170F 40% low wines would be pretty prone to ignition if they leaked out... I guess maybe a mag-drive unit?

  • You usually don't need mixing/agitation for low wines though.

  • edited January 2015

    @CothermanDistilling - Elements hissing or singing on startup? If singing, make a note of the orientation of the element, tighten it into the element housing and reinstall with the element rotated 90 degrees to the right from the noted orientation.

    I've found some elements to make a kind of high pitched vibration/harmonics noise when installed in certain orientations. It's odd, I know.

  • hissing and the intermittent popping I need to put an SPL meter on it, it is easily twice as loud at 100 as it is at 150 degrees when you can see flow in the sight window...

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