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Dash 2 Hybrid - how to hit 190+?

edited December 2014 in Usage

I have a dash 2 6 plate 4" column with a 20" section on top stuffed with 4+lbs of copper mesh rolls. Running it on top of a keg boiler with 2x5500 watt elements. On is just on/off and the other is controlled with a SD diy controller.

Started my first run on it earlier today with about 10 gallons at 80 proof from TPW strips, here was my sequence. Power on (11kw) until column is at temp and plates are loaded, about 20 minutes. Equalize with just 1 element at ~50%. More than that and the top plate starts to flood. About 30 minutes. Start to back off the dephleg flow until the heads start dropping off. That started at 188 proof and slowly dropped from there down to about 182. Dephleg output was about 62C I gathered for about 4 total liters before needing to shut it down for family reasons.

I was expecting this setup to easily pull 190+ at a decent rate, what do I need to adjust to bring the proof higher? More cooling water? Less power? I'm planning to fire back up tomorrow to finish the run so I can make some peppermint schnapps before Christmas, so I'd love to figure it out by then.

Or is 190+ not doable with this rig?

Thanks!

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Comments

  • Should be easily doable. Did you set up the column using a level? Have you used packed sections before and if so is your mesh packed comfortably?

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  • edited December 2014

    62c is high IMO. Need to dial it in so that exit water is 52c -54c IMO. Adjust power and water flow accordingly.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • Hi Jung, I'd expect you'll be using around 2000W-2400W for your 4" for a spirit run. But someone with a 4" neutralizer should be able to chip in to confirm your power requirements.

    Power v CM coolant flow is always a delicate balance. Your aim is a pencil tip thickness flow of spirit coming off your parrot, no thicker, thinner is fine/time.

    For me to achieve that rate with my 6" neutralizer rig spirit running at 4800W I fully close my CM inlet and then just crack it open just a tad. That delivers roughly 1mL/W at 95%+. So for me I'm pulling off roughly 4.4L/hour, based on that you'd be getting ~2L/h. My 20" packing doesn't have any reflux centering.

    For my next run I'm reconfiguring the neutralizer to a VM setup, allowing me 100% water flow to my condenser and improved ABV control via the gate valve. Once set to the desired ABV you don't need to adjust the gate valve for the remainder of the run, when run is done no more product will come out and system sits in a state of reflux. Great for producing neutral spirit.

    I'll reconfigure later today and post the picture.

    PS, have you checked out the manuals?

    Cheers,

    Mech.

  • @punkin - Yes to the level, not 90.0 degrees, but close. And no to the packing, I just packed it yesterday. It's about as tight as I could get it in there.

    @Lloyd, thanks for the tip. I'll shoot for lower water temp to try that.

    @TheMechWarrior - good stuff. Thanks. And yeah, I've read the manuals many times as I've had the dash for over a year, just don't get to run much with some family stuff and I' do never been able to run this configuration.

  • Hi @Jung but it was @Smaug that gave the tip about the water temp.

    With 6 plates its very, very easy to get 94% but that extra 1% takes a bit of effort in the details. With no additional packed section you can get 95% but production is quite slow.
    Just my experience... a plumb column, reflux centerer above the packing, a few strands of scrubby in the dephlegmator pipes and a delicate hand on the dephlem's needle valve and power controller are the variables that you can easily control.
    Packing a column seems to be more art than science and copper mesh does not like to be squeezed too tightly. SS wool needs to be squeezed in about as tight as you can.
    My limited trials with lava rock and porous ceramic balls has been far easier for me to get to true azeotrope than I ever got with copper mesh.

    A 6 plate column that has a dropping ABV % over the course of the run suggests there is a little too much boiler power.

  • My experience with copper mesh is that you can roll it pretty much as tight as you want. Then pack them just touching. So long as you can breathe freely through the pipe you are right, but i'd be thinking that a 4 x 510 section would need 2-3 kg of structured mesh.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • I dont know if I've been reading my alcometer wrong for the last 13 months but i've never had trouble hitting azeo (95.3) with my 4 plate column. I don't even reflux that long and i collect at about 2-3l/hr.

    I guess i've just been lucky?

  • edited December 2014

    The alco is only half of the tools needed. The other half is a good thermometer and a temperature correction table.
    My 93% shown with my alco is at 11°C for a corrected 95.7%. In the summer my cooling water is MUCH warmer and I need to correct the other way.
    Even half of a degree one way or the other gives a big difference in the temperature corrected reading.

    Note that my alcoholmeter and my thermometer are not laboratory certified correct so its entirely possible that my readings are incorrect. If I was selling booze then there would be pressure to buy the high dollar certified gear but for less than 10 bucks this is good enough for my needs. (Go ahead, call me cheap, I'm used to it :D )

  • I've reconfigured from CM to VM mode, will run it on Saturday.

    image

    cm_to_vm.jpg
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  • I have a customer who has some bits in at my welders atm that has the same idea. Height issues have given him the idea to have a 2" ferrule welded in the side at the top of the packed section. An elegant solution and one we may look at stocking.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @Larry and @Smaug - sorry for the swap, a bit too much holiday cheer. Thanks both for the comments.

    Interesting tip on the temp correction. My cool water is about 12C, never measured he final product temp. I do that all the time with brewing, but never thought of it here.

    I doubled checked plumb, and it's as good as it'll get, pretty darn good, but maybe .1-.2 degrees off.

    Rerunning right now and dephleg temps are are 53.3C and power is down a twitch from yesterday. We'll see in a moment where that gets me.

  • @Jung said: Larry and Smaug - sorry for the swap, a bit too much holiday cheer. Thanks both for the comments.

    Hehe, Larry is Smaug. :))

    Hope you have more luck with it mate, it should do it standing on it's ear, as Jonno said, he gets it up around there without the packed section.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Stupid iPad and limited screen combined with limited brain function. Sorry...

    Got it above 190 for a bit, but as it's just a TPW run and my time is limited, I cranked it up a bit to finish faster. Ran above 180 for almost 3 gallons.

    Still running now.

  • edited December 2014

    @Law_Of_Ohms said: whats the boiler ABV% charge?

    .

    Started my first run on it earlier today with about 10 gallons at 80 proof from TPW strips, here was my sequence. Power on (11kw) until column is at temp and plates are loaded, about 20 minutes. Equalize with just 1 element at ~50%. More than that and the top plate starts to flood. About 30 minutes. Start to back off the dephleg flow until the heads start dropping off. That started at 188 proof and slowly dropped from there down to about 182. Dephleg output was about 62C I gathered for about 4 total liters before needing to shut it down for family reasons.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @jung I run a keg with a 4" dash + packed section and can get 95+abv each and every run without much effort at all. Water temps are anywhere between winter 5c to summer 40c, output water temp 50c to 60c or higher depending on power in. I have 2 x 3600w, both on for warm up, one on a controller during the run. My packed section is full of stainless scrubbers, packed fairly tight by hand. TPW stripped is what I use for neutral, say 45lt @ 50% plus extra water to top up. Reckon I have a video of the run somewhere with temps etc shown.

    Its worth noting when reconfigured for whisky I struggle to keep the abv on the low side.

    fadge

  • I should add my method.

    Heat up flat out

    First sign of fores turn off 1 element. Run max 10 amp or 2400w with max water flow.

    Ease back water valve until fores just dripping. Collect 150 or 250 ml. Start collecting heads but slow and a adjust valve or power for a touch more than drips. Collect a few jars until the worst seems to be coming. This can take up to 1 hr. Hearts slowly up the power and wind valve back just a bit if needed. So far everything is at max abv. Keep going with a touch of extra power during run, steady stream and still 95+. After a while output will slow, either keep going or jack up power. Tails will kick in at some stage, either collect or just shut down. If keeping the tails wack the power up and stop when it's not worth the effort, too slow or too low.

    Fadge

  • Thanks, @fadge - finished my run yesterday at with hearts at 185. I don't have a meter hooked up to know my wattage, but around 50-60% of the controller on 1 5500watt element.

    Maybe I'm just so used to 10+ liter/hour strip runs so I don't have the patience for 2l an hour for spirit runs. I'll try different packing next time as well.

  • @TheMechWarrior said: I've reconfigured from CM to VM mode, will run it on Saturday.

    How did it go? Easier to run and more stable? I want to try this with my 7 plate 4" hybrid.

  • Been busy doing other things. I now need to pull it all apart and reconfigure for 4 plates for a scotch run followed by a bourbon run. Once those are out of the way I'll be back on to the brandy and neutrals so I'll let you know as soon as I can.

  • edited January 2015

    image

    vmarm4inch.jpg
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  • OK folks, I ran in VM mode today and I'm convinced I want to run this way for all neutral runs. I set the 1.5" gate valve to achieve 94% offtake and it stayed there until I'd recovered about 70% of the ethanol, then dropped off slowly in-line with the tails. It basically settles at 90% at the end of the run and just slows down to a fine dribble and then turn it off. Very stable.

    Only issue I have is my 6" condenser can only knock down about 4,800W, I'd love to throw more power at this so I'm going to get a new 6" condenser made that's 100mm longer, baffles and more tubes. I'll draw it up tonight or tomorrow for construction quotes.

  • Great to hear! But 94% seems little low? Guess you dont use lava in your packed section? Did you fill the pipes in the dephlegmator with srubbies?

  • With a vm you can dial in the abv you want. 94% a bit low? You do realise you can only go 1.63% more than this?

    I was happy with the quality at 94.

    I'm removing all the bubblers and adding a 1.3m packed section and changing the 6" tall condenser to a 14" tall more efficient designed condenser. All in 6".

    That will give me 16 theoretical plates for the same height.

    Consider that 1 column in my multi-column trial. ..

  • I'm using a 500 mm stainless scrubbies packed section on top of 6 plates SD 2 4" and havent had an issue getting 94 % and I'm very happy with the quality of white Im interested to see your fermenters etc @TheMechWarrior sounds like you have a lot of volume to play with Are the wine bottle for storage or just making cuts? Looks like a great little setup

  • Wine is from ~'92 and for stripping. My packing is copper.

    I'll keep playing and keep you posted.

  • @TheMechWarrior what size gate valve did you use on that VM setup please?

  • That was a 1.5" gate valve mate. Plenty big enough for that job. WAY too big for the original 2" VM it was mounted on though ;)

  • @TheMechWarrior said: With a vm you can dial in the abv you want. 94% a bit low? You do realise you can only go 1.63% more than this?

    I was happy with the quality at 94.

    Just a quick question, when I run my 2" VM, I open my 1inch valve half way and it produces 1.2lt per hour at 93%

    I always assumed that the 93% was the limitation of my packing but now I think about it after reading your quote above, It is of course not the packing, its the effect of the takeoff rate vs reflux return, for some reason I never put 2 and 2 together and though of it that way. I've got a feeling if I aimed for azeotrope with my 2" setup my collection rate would be quite slow, but hopefully before Xmas, I'll upgrade my packed section to 3" maybe even 4"

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