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Here is my rig. Flame away ;)

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  • edited September 2014

    Excuse the mess... Boys at work and our oversized 10 ton chiller is last pic.

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  • How many gallons is that?????

  • It looks like a StillDragon knockoff, where did you get it?

  • McSimilar isn't it?

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @Littlechicago, I'm confused, did someone sell you that rig claiming it's a StillDragon?

    We've just recently been shown a picture by someone from Russia with similar knock-off parts, especially the Union Sight Glass Tee with undersized outer glass mounting ring and the reducer with analogue thermometer. People who have seen such usually come to us seeking the real deal. ;)

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • No Sdeurope. He said from his introduction that he bought a 'competitors' unit.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Oh yes, I remember that now, though I had to dig a bit to jog my memory.
    Glad you found us @Littlechicago and I'm sure Larry will take good care of you as your distillery grows.

  • edited September 2014

    4" plated column on what looks to be an IBC tote is a questionable commercial approach, it's sadomasochism.

    We've seen realistic run data from Red Door with a similarly sized boiler, and he's got a significantly faster 8" perf plate column (probably 5x faster). Which means you could possibly be looking at 30-40 hour run times. Not sure about a strategy that requires full overnight shifts to run, but if you tried to do this over multiple days, with multiple heat ups, you would stretch further yet.

    Given the approximate 22,000kw power (4x5.5kw) also undersized - You might be looking at 3 hour heat up times, so assuming an 11 hour work day.

    Day 1 - 3 hr heat, 8 hr run (11hr total, 8hr run)

    Day 2 - 3 hr heat, 8 hr run (22hr total, 16hr run)

    Day 3 - 3 hr heat, 8 hr run (33hr total, 24hr run)

    Day 4 - 3 hr heat, 8 hr run (44hr total, 32hr run)

    Day 5 - 3 hr heat, 8 hr run (55hr total, 40hr run)

    The additional heating and cooling cycles are going to result in an additional run overhead of $30 more (at 12 cents a kWh). Over the course of the year this will net to nearly $1,600 in unnecessary electrical consumption.

    5 more than full 11 hour days to do a single run is much too long, if you needed to pay someone to do this, even at minimum wage, you'll likely find that you'll be lucky to break even.

    And this is based on a 10% wash run, given a true spirit run, you might be looking at stretching this over more than a week.

  • edited September 2014

    Don't interpret this as me being a d!ck, I'm not trying to be, but this is why SD and the SD community makes them the better vendor, nobody here would have recommended this route. On a budget, we would have offered numerous realistic options and shared our own experiences. I'm more ticked off at the person that sold you that. You'll lose your mind in about a month, and be cutting a hole in that and welding on an 8" ferrule, and probably a few more elements too.

  • @grim - I have a feeling he knows your point, and when going pro, I know in my case that money flows out the door faster than cooling water, so I do agree, but if the time and money are not there to make it an 8" right now, they aren't there... that $1600 at the end of they year does not buy $6000 of still right now... in the same manner that a guy running a million dollar kothe or carl will tell you to not even bother with something that is less, I feel someone with a 8" SD will do the same.... but then again, a lot of commercial distilleries have started with 4"... the modularity still is there for him to turn that into a smaller pilot system, and that is the beauty..

    Want to see the ultimate sadomasochism in a related business? Dogfish Head brewery worked a 10 gallon brewmagic system so often that Sam said that it was never dry for the first year or two....

    I think that our discussions here are the best information possible for new people starting out to research what size is best for them to start with...

  • The good thing about a large boiler is that you can always put less in. If you upgrade the still down the track as money and demand requires then you can put more in. You can't put more in a little boiler.

    Seems like a fairly standard practice to then move the smaller still to a pilot boiler at a later stage.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Well, he did ask for flame :))

    We've all seen were someone starts small and they work their way up as time and funds permit. StillDragon did the same! We started by vending a few custom made EZ flanges.

    When you pour your heart and soul into a venture, especially when every dime had to count, and the hard choices have to be made (eat or pay the electric bill) and the ole lady is tapping her foot at you... and at BEST you have a 30% chance or so of surviving the first year...

    I've seen so many people wash out that first year simply because of lack of operating capitol but I've seen plenty more carve out a thriving business. The common thread seems to be determination, creative thinking and a willingness to go unpaid for the first year or two while building the business.

    So I agree with every post to this thread. A 4" column is too small for a commercial operation and its production capacity is questionable to be able to achieve profitability yet it does get your foot in the door. And more than one SD customer has outgrown their single 8" still in pretty short order - a testament to them doing something right! (At least one of them that I know of actually started with a 2" still ^:)^ ).

    So to everyone that's building their dream, I tip my hat to you. Its the hardest job you'll ever love.

  • and again, it's size, that matters... ;) @Littlechicago: One question: what spirits do you produce with your rig? Just being curious. :-h

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • Ingenuity folks. There is another condenser not shown in the pics that changes the run-time math. $$$ and space determined the 4" tower. This will be our trial rig for new products in short order. For the record We bought a 60' by 12" industrial tower from the same company we got our chiller from. The main tower is sitting on pallets with no where to assemble it . So if someone has a 70+ foot tall building we can use , this will have to do for now. Our large tower was bought by an unnamed distillery but not assembled due to them having $ running out. This made the tower available for pennies on the dollar because the used equipment company couldn't unload it as fast as they would have liked (good for us). The boiler was a used dairy tank. We purchased 3 SS tanks for 1.00 a gallon and modified them for our needs. The boiler was a pasteurization tank not a IBC(250usgal) , the whole top half was made by us. I am a 38yo on disability(need a knee replacement). This business was a way for me to create my own job so frugal purchasing was a necessity especially when using investment $. Cotherman dist. can attest to the hemorrhaging of capitol while waiting for permitting. The setup including chiller and IBC (for condenser water) cost under 5k so I am happy . The 4" tower was purchased from a rival co. However with many issues upon delivery I will only purchase from Larry at this time. I am using SD controllers and many parts not seen. We will be converting to pro caps from our current bubble caps also. Thanks for the input guys. Anything else I can answer?

  • But... but... he asked to be flamed! :)) I just obliged!

    I'm not saying starting small is a problem, but when you are starting small, it also means that every dollar is important, and just as important is every hour you can spend. We all know, distilling is the easy part, it's the fun part, the hard part is turning it a business that makes money.

    I can tell you a story about another local start up who was "starting small" - he was clearly misinformed, given some bad advice, persuaded to make decisions that he shouldn't have made. He leased a building that wasn't appropriate for a distillery, proceeded to hire architects and build out, despite having no approvals from the town, and when confronted, needed to appear before the planning board, was rejected, was told to bring back lawyers, he did, and was shot down again, and proceeded to make a third appearance, and was told denied on all counts. Spent all sorts of big money on nearly worthless equipment (small gas fired alembics).

    I know for a fact that he's spent nearly 9 months rent and security, probably close to $20,000 there. Will need to either continue to pay or break his lease, which who knows how costly will be, I believe he invested nearly $5,000 on the buildout, and closer to $10,000 for attorneys, experts, and architects. He's now in the hole for probably $40k, with nothing to show for it. Probably a good thing, because fire, plumbing, and building would have destroyed him with unexpected costs. I begged the guy to call me and talk when I'd first caught wind of him, I would have been glad to help, but he never called.

    There are plenty of schiesters on the internet these days peddling all sorts of misinformation regarding equipment, start up costs, wildly unrealistic yields, wildly unrealistic profit estimates, etc. Step 1: Buy my still, Step 2: Set it up, Step 3: Profit! It's like printing money!

    There are lots of folks that are just dying to share their information and help out, in a positive way. That's all I'm saying here, leverage the community.

  • you can post a pic of that tower!

  • edited September 2014

    One more suggestion and I'll just shut up!

    Be sure to locate any and all electrical panels, equipment, controllers and outlets at least 5 feet above the floor, and at least 5 feet away from the closest point of the still. I realize this will cost money of extra cabling, but if you get a fire inspector that insists your distillation area is "Classified", you are going to be moving it anyway. I would argue that the still area is div 2 to make things easy, since vapors shouldn't normally be present, but can be in accidental scenarios. However, the Discus Distillery Fire Manual recommends class 1 div 1 for the entire still room, and if your inspector insists, you aren't going to argue against that.

    If you want to be extra careful, 5 feet off the floor, 8 feet from the nearest point. They can dictate that anything in the classified area will need to be classified for use, meaning explosion proof (Class 1, Div 1, Group D). Which means EXPENSIVE. If you want to be extra extra careful, locate electrics on the side opposite the parrot and any collection vessels.

    For example, the SD controllers on the wall, the subpanel, those are not devices classified for use in hazardous areas. This also includes any lighting above the still. Pray to god he doesn't question the heating elements too, because EP versions of those are nearly $1,000 a piece. If your temp probes are questioned, just say "intrinsically safe".

    For good measure, move or remove any and all electrical in that 8' area, non-EP lighting, outlets, switches etc. It only needs to be explosion proof if it's there, if it ain't there, it don't. I'm not an architect, and there are state codes that supercede here.

  • Pm sent Coth. @ grim , you are preaching to the choir at this time. I have two partners and our wives who will be working so run time is what it is, for now. Higher efficiency and output comes with time and money. I am aware of this. How I will be spending MY money is not what I asked, but thank you for the input( I meant that with the upmost respect). I do appreciate the input on the rig , I do have the extra condenser which will allow me to run a tad faster than what is pictured. Bleeding money is an understatement for the record.

  • I am well aware of codes and what is expected by our municipality and state.

  • Welcome Littlechicago and @grim I wish you where in Australia so I could pick the hell out of your brains. As for start up costs grim well just the hobby side of things for me so far is in to me for about 8k and its still ob going.

  • I bought the twin to @Littlechicago 's chiller. It was a great deal, but needs complete control wiring, and the refrigerant loop was cut since it was outside the unit. I am going to use a heat exchanger identical to this one that is my wort chiller(2.5 ton BTSSC-30), the smaller one is a typical home brew chiller coil (1/2ton BTHSN-06 or BTHSN-09)

    Heat Pump/ Chiller/ Evaporator Coils @ Turbotec

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  • Sorry @Littlechicago if I read it wrong....
    Wasn't saying you are poor, and in my life I've met some VERY rich folks that appeared to be damn near penniless on purpose. Its a life lesson that the bum next to you at the MegaMart could very well own the joint.
    And while I am fabulously not wealthy I do enjoy a very high level mediocrity.

    Just glad you are finally on the path to SD nirvana and walking the path to enlightenment (via Larry's cash register).

    Go fourth and distill, my friend. May the tails always be at your back.

    (eBay the sucker and get a 5" ProCap)

  • edited September 2014

    Been playing around with trying to convert a residential split type AC condenser unit into a chiller using a similar setup. This way I'll just put it outside, or on the roof. Heat exchanger slightly different, I've got a straight through unit, no coil. You are running refrigerant through the heat exchanger correct, and not just water from the chiller? Just another thing on my pile of things to do.

  • edited September 2014

    @grim said: Just another thing on my pile of things to do.

    Amen brother, and why does the list get longer even I mark off items?

    Oh, your goodies shipped out today to be crated. Scratching that from my list!

  • Set out to be a distiller and instead I became an engineer, a welder, a plumber, a programmer, and electrician, an architect, a contractor, a graphic designer, a lawyer, an accountant and now studying logistics and supply chain, so maybe a shipper too.

    :))

  • @grim said: Set out to be a distiller and instead I became an engineer, a welder, a plumber, a programmer, and electrician, an architect, a contractor, a graphic designer, a lawyer, an accountant and now studying logistics and supply chain, so maybe a shipper too.

    :))

    Mr DIY

  • @grim said: Set out to be a distiller and instead I became an engineer, a welder, a plumber, a programmer, and electrician, an architect, a contractor, a graphic designer, a lawyer, an accountant and now studying logistics and supply chain, so maybe a shipper too.

    :))

    Wouldn't have to if your pockets were deeper :))

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • Yeah ain't that the truth.

  • @grim said: Been playing around with trying to convert a residential split type AC condenser unit into a chiller using a similar setup. This way I'll just put it outside, or on the roof. Heat exchanger slightly different, I've got a straight through unit, no coil. You are running refrigerant through the heat exchanger correct, and not just water from the chiller? Just another thing on my pile of things to do.

    yes, refrigerant will run through the heat exchanger, as the chiller did not have it's own heat exchanger for the refrigerant. I have a buddy that scraps big chillers (up to 1000ton), he got me that bigger of the two coils for scrap value... I welded on water and wort fittings to make it a counterflow chiller for homebrew, have to hit him up for another for this thing...

    I toyed with using a residential AC condenser, heck, they are made to use outside... but got this cheaper...

    FYI - someone ahem told me that they just ran the refrigerant through a loop of copper in the tote full of water, but needed to direct the outlet of a circulation pump at it to keep the thing from icing...

  • @SMAUG IF his pockets were deep enough he wouldn't hit a lick at a snake...

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