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50L Bain-Marie

Intent is for recipe development, before going "all in" on a full production run. Any hopes of a 50L Baine Marie becoming available? What would the cost be like to include an agitator for runs on the grain?

Comments

  • 50L or 120L are about the same price. 120L or 200L also about the same price.
    The best value is around the 380L size when analyzing the cost per liter. Above that size the wall must be thickened and the price increases. Below that size the labor costs about the same to make the smaller sizes. Adding an agitator means increasing the wall thickness, too.
    My personal (non-baine marie) boiler cost me the same as if it was 120L but its only half that size. I had mine made to fit the space available for it.

  • Sounds like the long answer to $1700. May try and convert a 1/2 BBL Keg using a local welder. Can you source an agitator that will fit a 2" Tri clamp with a 12-14" shaft? If so, cost?

  • edited May 2014

    The primary use of TC-mount agitators is the pharma/biotech industry, which makes them very expensive. New these things cost thousands of dollars, and even used you'd shake your head in disbelief. If you do hunt for one, be sure to understand whether or not it has an air-tight shaft seal that can withstand high temperature alcohol vapor, and not just a simple dust seal.

    You may have an easier time finding a flange mount agitator with good seals, and they tend to be used in wider applications, and thus more frequently found on the used market.

    You need to be careful about the torque generated using a standard welded TC ferrule. Depending on your wash viscosity - with a decent motor and gear reduction, the agitator can actually tear itself off the tank (say if you decided you wanted to try out a grappa with skins).

  • Are you sure you wish to distill on the grain - if you dont actually need to? I can understand fermenting on the grain, and in some situations distilling on the grain when there is no alternative. However, in general I get the impression that there are reasons for NOT doing so.

  • edited May 2014

    In Austria everyone distills the whole mash with solids. They say, the spirits have more flavor that way.

    StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area

  • I am working up plans for an air motor adaptor that will fit a 4" TC. The biggest issue right now is vapor control.

  • When testing how recipes will taste from a larger size still which is run on the gran, you need to mimic the size and conditions. Trying to develop recipes on a full size run takes away from regular production and the cost of materials can get staggering. This is why I'm looking at a Bain-Marie, smaller version of whats being used and the cost for materials is $50 or less per test run.

    Lloyd, please send me a message with a quote to ship to Colorado, USA 60L Bain-Marie boiler with agitator (I have a 4" Dash 1SGK I will use on this) Also include how long it would take to manufacture and ship.

    Thank you!

  • Just for your interest, there are a couple of current threads on Artisan Distiller where people have adapted and built agitators to Tc end caps.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @adiefender said: When testing how recipes will taste from a larger size still which is run on the gran, you need to mimic the size and conditions. Trying to develop recipes on a full size run takes away from regular production and the cost of materials can get staggering. This is why I'm looking at a Bain-Marie, smaller version of whats being used and the cost for materials is $50 or less per test run.

    Lloyd, please send me a message with a quote to ship to Colorado, USA 60L Bain-Marie boiler with agitator (I have a 4" Dash 1SGK I will use on this) Also include how long it would take to manufacture and ship.

    Thank you!

    Hi @adiefender, we just got back from a few days of visiting a couple of factories...
    I don't usually get directly involved with individual sales within a distributor's territory. Please direct your request to the USA distributor @Smaug so he can get everything into the pipeline. Even if you only need a quote, its still the protocol that we have to follow to keep everything straight.

  • For smaller boilers it might be a cost effective option to incorporate pumped wort circulation instead of using an agitator. You can even use steam injection for the same purpose. Once the boiler is up to temperature you may not need the agitation any longer. Problems with on the grain distillation mostly occur during warm up.

  • Amazing idea @Myles. Might be cheaper than an agitator but sadly my ability to supply pumps is not just limited its nonexistent. If just one country then maybe I could focus but that's not the case. If SD does pumps then its global or nothing. That's a problem we (OK, I) can't seem to easily resolve.

  • @Myles said: For smaller boilers it might be a cost effective option to incorporate pumped wort circulation instead of using an agitator. You can even use steam injection for the same purpose. Once the boiler is up to temperature you may not need the agitation any longer. Problems with on the grain distillation mostly occur during warm up.

    Thats what Miami Club Rum does.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • I've seen vapor tight seals before, most of them are relatively complex beasts consisting of both upper and lower bearings (or an upper bearing and a bottom bushing). This is to protect the relatively soft seal material from being consumed quickly from the shaft not rotating perfectly or vibrating. Most actually consist of a set of seals, and include additional dust and liquid seals before the shaft seal, to protect it from any material which might accelerate wear.

    Not saying a simple HDPE or PTFE block seal wouldn't work, but you'd need to be very careful about losing vapor, especially in a situation where you have pressure differential up the column. It might wear quickly if the shaft isn't balanced, and if that happens - kaboom. Would work great for a mash tank, not sure about a still.

    So, Miles +1, since it is significantly easier to build a very safe seal with pipe thread and teflon tape.

  • @Lloyd said: Amazing idea Myles. Might be cheaper than an agitator but sadly my ability to supply pumps is not just limited its nonexistent. If just one country then maybe I could focus but that's not the case. If SD does pumps then its global or nothing. That's a problem we (OK, I) can't seem to easily resolve.

    What issues can you not resolve with pumps? I would think one pump/motor could work for you if it was a 100-120/200-240 motor with 50/60hz capability. I regularly ship one motor for a cooling system inside a device we make all over the world.

    You'd just have to ship it with a bare cord so it could be wired per that country's own plug configuration.

  • I don't know if this helps but one of the pharmaceutical production lines I worked on was a high temperature sulphuric acid concoction (150degC) under pressure (2500kPa). The vessel was completely sealed and it was agitated using a magnetic stirrer through a borosilicate panel. I have never seen a volatile mixture being externally agitated through a seal and motor. Magnetic stirrers are not hard to build and overcome all of the above problems. The other way I have seen is an external pump which draws the fluid out of the vessel from one port and then injects it back in through another port. Only ever seen this done on low temperature (<100degC) and non volatile solutions but would probably be okay on stills since its not in the vapour path, only in the mash.

  • Sorry Lloyd, didn't mean to step on any toes. Message has been sent to Smaug.

    Thanks,

  • edited May 2014

    Have you seen Chugger Pumps? I have two stainless steel pumps and they work great. Maybe you could be a vendor and get some SD branded pumps.

  • chugger had teething problems when they came out, I believe they are good now, but the issues they had with quality initially had to cost someone some money.... I think you would want an XP (explosion proof) for operating near an operating still... also, mag drive impeller would likely not work, you want FI, (flexible impeller) positive displacement... search this forum for depco to find contact info for a guy who will give advice and great prices to this industry...

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