Placement of Copper Packing

ohyea

So we are setting up our 380 with an expansion chamber for rum and whiskey. Everything is looking good but I'm going to add some structured copper packing in one of the 8" sections to scrub sulfides and for a little more passive reflux. Any ideas on the placement of the copper packing below or above the expansion chamber? I have a copper bubble cap plate without the caps to hold the copper up.

TheMechWarrior

Above, I believe you want the copper in your vapour path.

By placing it below the expansion chamber you'll be exposing your copper to the condensate of the resulting reflux as well as it being too close to your boiler in the event of a puke.

ohyea

Not worried abt the puke possibility as the boiler has a lot of headspace and we are only charging with 80gal. The lower section is 8x8 so it can't hold too much copper anyway but I agree I think we want high speed vapor to hit the expansion chamber walls not slowed down vapor working its way thru packing, Also we were considering doing a 8 to 4" reducer on top of the expan chamber and replacing the 8x20" with a 4x20" packed section to increase vapor speed thru the upper section. Condenser is a pair of long 2" in series.

Myles

I am not sure about the effect of the expansion chamber due to the relatively low heat loss (stainless not copper) but there will be a drastic reduction in vapour speed which is good. For foam knock down and droplet retention it should be fine.

As for the copper catalyst then yes just above the ball should do it.

Now if you wish to make that ball active by putting a pancake coil or calendria inside it - well that is an entirely different situation.

shindig

Can someone explain what the expansion chamber does? They look so cool but I am not sure what they are designed to do.

Smaug

In this case it can be helpful for a few different reasons.

The added surface area will induce a measure of passive reflux. This can boost abv by promoting a higher degree of attenuation.

The expanded area can also help the column riser cope with potential foam up as commonly found with a rum beer kettle charge.

Looks bloody cool and should be an attractive feature for distillery tours and such.

grim

Is it me or is there some sort of 1950s robot trend going on here? Danger Will Robinson!

50's robots trump steampunk, so I'm down with it.

grim

The way I understood it, is the varying head shapes were all essentially creative ways to increase surface area, and cause reflux and additional mass transfer/enrichment of the vapor.

I think that by placing the packing under the ball, there will be enough reflux that you will be creating an active packed section. If you are looking to increase abv output, put the packing under the ball. If you are looking to use the copper as a sulfur catalyst only, and not push abv output higher, put it above the ball.

As interesting as the head designs were, I can't imagine you could get a full plate worth of enrichment out of one, but that's just a guess.

We used a similar design in the 12" dragon with a glass section above the dephlegmator to add additional copper surface area solely as a catalyst. Not nearly as unique as the ball though.

dad

In that beautiful rig...the problem with placing the copper is getting to it to clean it. I think I would replace the straight section between boiler and ball with a "T". There you could get the copper mesh in and out for cleaning.

shindig

I guess I understand the chamber adding extra "contact" but since the ball is not copper than it isn't cleaning up the vapor, right? Seems more like a cool design element and maybe offering extra head space for foaming.

grim

Any time you have vapor and condensate passing each other in a countercurrent fashion you are going to get mass transfer. With plates you are bubbling through, with packing you are creating numerous interfaces on the packing material, in a tube in shell dephlegmator you have vapor dripping down tubes as vapor passes up. In a tall pot still tube you have passive reflux dripping down the walls, etc etc. It's why you can make a packed column out of pretty much anything and have it work, the only real difference is the efficiency.

Only using this as an example, because the impact is probably overstated - but it's similar to lyne arm geometry, is it perfectly horizontal? Pointing upwards? Pointing down? What does it matter? Because it's going to determine which way the passively condensed liquid flows - pointing down, it means it will exit the condenser with little countercurrent flow, lower proof, "more flavor". Pointing upwards, now you'll create a higher output abv and a "lighter spirit" as the passive reflux and vapor cross.

I don't know how anyone would argue what the best shape is, since there are infinite possibilities. But really, it's about generating additional passive reflux and vapor contact. The size is directly related with the exterior surface area. Bigger helmet, more passive reflux. The other thing to keep in mind is vapor speed slows in the helmet, so "contact" time is longer, in addition the funny shapes can generate additional turbulence, again more contact.

Putting ball or helmet before a stack of plates? The impact is probably nil. I don't think even the fanciest helmet, copper and all, would act as the equivalent of even a single plate.

Smaug

I totally agree with your last assertion.

However when pot stilling, exploiting the inefficiencies of the system is not a liability when we think about flavored spirits.

Smaug

@Smaug said: I totally agree with your last assertion.

However when pot stilling, exploiting the inefficiencies of the system is not a liability when we think about flavored spirits.

I am so curious about stripping with a four plater and doing the spirit run with the pot still.

grim

@smaug said: However when pot stilling, exploiting the inefficiencies of the system is not a liability when we think about flavored spirits.

Well that's the interesting part, if you drew it out as a continuum, the potential number of different variations between zero and one plates is enormous compared to the potential variations between ten and eleven plates.

It's much too early in the year, but it's really a logarithmic function (this is just a simple graph)…

It's why nobody ever claims they've found nirvana by adding an 8th plate, but between 0 and 1, you've got a huge playground.

shindig

Grim,

That being said would it potentially cause a negative issue rather than helping (minimal as it may be)?

Smaug

Though your question was directed to me,,,,, I would say there would be no negatives.

grim

No negatives that I can think of.

Smaug

Er,,, not directed to me.... sorry.

shindig

haha- Thanks guys!

CothermanDistilling

what would happen if you packed a CD with copper... I mean 'packed it'...

grim

Wallet would be substantially lighter.

dad

@CothermanDistilling said: what would happen if you packed a CD with copper... I mean 'packed it'...

In a 3" - 4' dia column, you'd get one HETP every 4"-5" of height.

ohyea

Wow. I checked this thread several times a day to build this thing but only response was from TMW. Ok so my opinion and im no self proclaimed MD but compared to a 2,3,4 or hybrid plated that i have ran the flavor of the white is soooooo much better. I ended up with 20# of structure copper above the ball with a bubble plate to keep it from falling in the expansion cham.

ohyea

Sorry. Empty bub plate. Holes only.

CothermanDistilling

I want to taste it! I want to learn... crap, now I have to buy a ball and 20lb of structured copper? maybe if you could do a write-up on what you are doing, we all could learn a little more...

Have you tried it with one or two plates at the base and with the packing? what is the still charge?

ohyea

@cd, ok so i had 20 pounds of 99.999 ofc 4awg fine stranded scrap wire that i stripped the jacket off and cut into 8" long pieces then un-twisted it to 16awg spiral twists. Then soaked it in 3 tblspoon of citric acid granular to a gal of water for a day. Then i took a 8" o.d. roll of the structure cu and set it on the plate. Then just dropped all the scrap ontop as it keeps strands from dropping thru the big cap holes and into the boiler. I dont like using the fine stainless screen because the reflux activity makes the small mesh saturated and "plug up". I simply wanted the packing to not fall down. I may even add holes in the plate. The charge was 50 gal 10.5% cane sugar wash. Long stretch of hearts. Rock solid 130p for a long stretch. Dual 2" SD condensers ran in series with insanely cold water. Distillate came off at a freezing 49 deg f. Another thing worth mentioning is the ambient temp of the air was 55deg so the expansion chamber was quite cold compared to a 100deg distillery. When looking thru the site glass on the ball the "legs" running down the ball was i sight to see. 12kw was used for run. Have 32kw for heat up. I dont have 8" plates built so i can only compare to a 4" plated column. This was the first run after vinegar and sacrificial so not much data yet. Some AG will come soon and i will report back.

CothermanDistilling

make sure to keep samples of spring/summer/fall/winter for comparison! that 55deg ball must be doing some magic...

would LOVE to see what happens with one plate, even if it is a $40 perf plate

I use the dual 2" condensers, they rock for their size... thinking about putting a spiral stainless welding rod in each hole of the bottom one to slow down the distillate, they can only handle about 18L/hr before distillate gets warm, using 80f water, but the bottom condenser is not warm, just need more contact time...

I wish I was closer to Texas to come see it!

wait... 32KW, you put a 6th element in?

Kid

What was your collection speed at 130p?

ohyea

@cd got a couple 8kw watlow firerods om 50a breakers and some 6kw 20" long ss elements from brewnation on 30's Yes the delta from 55deg to 180 is much different than 100 to 180. The ball needs some aluminum on the outside to shed heat...

@kid abt 12L per hr. Wasnt really keeping track though.

Myles

It is a nice rig. I know you said you had pleanty of headspace but the drop in vapour speed going into the ball is supposed to help with getting rid of foam.

There was also something about the pressure drop being good for inducing reflux on its own but I honestly can't remember why just now.

Smaug

Think about it Myles. Water vapor at 1bar equals 250 degrees f.

Reduce pressure and the result is less heat. Less heat sets the tone for more reflux.