Copper Question

Drunk_cajun

I am looking to step up from a pot still to a 4" ProCap CD. My question is will there be enough copper in the system for a consumable product. Oh i am making whiskey by the way i forgot to add that bit. I am still getting my feet wet here so go easy on me.

grim

The fast answer is that you aren't going to have a problem. In addition you'll have more control over the final product.

The slightly longer answer is that all copper is not better, and there are studies to indicate that copper after the column may result in higher levels of EC (Ethyl Carbamate), which is a carcinogen. In addition, copper after the column is correlated with higher levels of copper in the distillate, which is also a problem due to bioaccumulation toxicity.

Smaug

Hi Drunk_cajun,

Also, because our system is modular, you can certainly add (or take away) copper at your convenience. Our entire model was created to give the end user as many choices/options as possible. This way you can prove or dis prove according to your own observations.

BTW, please feel comfortable posting here. This is not the shark tank often found on other community forums.

Cheers

Moonshine

@grim said: The slightly longer answer is that all copper is not better, and there are studies to indicate that copper after the column may result in higher levels of EC (Ethyl Carbamate), which is a carcinogen. In addition, copper after the column is correlated with higher levels of copper in the distillate, which is also a problem due to bioaccumulation toxicity.

If by any chance anyone can point to such studies please tell, I'd be delighted to put up an announcement clarifying those all copper myths once and for all!

grim

Oh no, it's much more fun to continue the argument!

The Impact of Copper in Different Parts of Malt Whisky Pot Stills on New Make Spirit Composition and Aroma (PDF) @ Wiley Online Library

ETHYL CARBAMATE FORMATION IN THE PRODUCTION OF POT STILL WHISKY (PDF) @ Wiley Online Library

ETHYL CARBAMATE FORMATION IN GRAIN BASED SPIRITS (PDF) @ Wiley Online Library

ETHYL CARBAMATE FORMATION IN GRAIN-BASED SPIRITS (PDF) @ Wiley Online Library

Ethyl carbamate kinetics in double distillation of sugar cane spirit (PDF) @ Wiley Online Library

Ethyl carbamate in pot still cachaças (Brazilian sugar cane spirits): Influence of distillation and storage conditions @ ScienceDirect

Ethyl carbamate in cachaça (Brazilian sugarcane spirit): Extended survey confirms simple mitigation approaches in pot still distillation @ ScienceDirect

Metals in alcoholic beverages: A review of sources, effects, concentrations, removal, speciation, and analysis @ ScienceDirect

Quality of illegally and informally produced alcohol in Europe: Results from the AMPHORA project. @ ResearchGate

Production and Composition of Cider Spirits Distilled in "Alquitara" (PDF) @ Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry

Drunk_cajun

Thanks guys this place is the most helpful forum i have found on the net. I have seen people say you need copper somewhere in the vapor line to get rid of the nastiest in the distillate if you want to consume it but i didn't know how much copper that was.

grim

My opinion on the it is that the cleaner you run your ferment, the less copper you need. Copper is the solution for a wash high in sulfur compounds. Sulfur compounds are produced by stressed yeast. Keep the yeast happy, and you don't need the copper.

Smaug

• The level of carcinogen ethyl carbamate (EC) in cachaça is relatively high.
• The profile of pot still distillation affects EC level in cachaça.
• Maximising reflux ratios in the ascending parts of pot still reduces EC.
• Minimising exposure to copper in the descending parts of pot still reduces EC.

Back and forth aye?

Drunk_cajun

Well made the jump just ordered the 4" CD with the procap's. I will be asking more questions later LOL!

Smaug

Thank you @Drunk_cajun.

We will get you packed up and out the door.

Drunk_cajun

Thanks Smaug..

emptyglass

If copper is no good, why include it at all?

Ethyl carbamate (EC, urethane) was a hot topic in the 1980s, as it was found to be carcinogenic and to increase during maturation phase of spirits. At the time various whiskies, especially grain or bourbon whiskies from stainless steel column stills were producing spirits with way too much EC and the concentrations seemed only to increase during maturation. It was found that copper in the ascending phase on still decreased EC dramatically and copper was (re)introduced into column stills.

Whisky Science - Copper

Smaug

Didn't say copper was no good at all Empty.

Of course it is good. It's just not the be all to end all.

grim

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Elevation of natural ethyl carbamate levels, subsequent to distillation, only occured if the distillation was carried out in the presence of copper. When fermented worts were distilled in all-glass distillation apparatus there was no significant ethyl carbamate formation.

This work demonstrates that not only is copper essential for ethyl carbamate formation, but that the mechanism of formation is dependent upon hot copper contact with some precursor which is apparently present in the vapour hase of the process.

ETHYL CARBAMATE FORMATION IN THE PRODUCTION OF POT STILL WHISKY (PDF) @ Wiley Online Library

Smaug

Like a pinball.

Moonshine

Someone in the mood to write an easy to read (more or less) short summary about the pros/cons of copper in the still?

We really should have some info for new visitors who have never seen a stainless steel or glass column still before. The large coppersmiths like Carl, Kothe & Holstein don't want people to know that a still does not have to be all copper, and it has to be assumed that the uninformed really thinks that way, not realizing that StillDragon equipment is not only way cheaper but also better. B-)

captainshooch

Or if someone can do the math and figure out how much copper surface area is in a 6 plate 4" standard cap Crystal Dragon and compare that area to a 4" by 2 feet long basic copper pot style head. Might be surprised to see if there more in the CD. Dunno. Anyone up to do the math?

Sunshine

push

TheMechWarrior

The 4" by 2 feet wins, the 4 standard bubble cap plates come in at roughly 0.143m2 while the former comes in at 0.211m2. Someone feel free to correct the math. That all said it's not a competition about who has the most copper, you only need what you need. The rest is surplus.

Sunshine

Push

FloridaCracker

Holy resurrected post, Batman!

grim

Unfair comparison, in the bubble cap scenario, the distillate will have more overall contact with the copper (surface area X time), even through the surface area is lower, purely due to the action of the reflux. Even in a low reflux scenario - 4:1, molecules will go up and down an average of 4 times before exiting, and this isn't including the dwell time on the plates.

Sunshine

I had to push it up, because our customers are often very unsure, what the right way to approach this is.

grim

Copper is a crutch for those who can't manage fermentation properly.

Bam, I said it.

Sunshine

...

FloridaCracker

I guess the "traditional" still makers and people who have those stills want to believe that their's are the best. As technology improves and knowledge is gained, it will become harder to cling to those ideas that were once carved in stone. Old habits die hard.

How readily available was SS back in the day? What was a typical ferment? Personally I don't look at drinkability the same anymore since I have been making my own stuff. What I considered "whiskey" 15 years ago I can't drink anymore.

grim

Copper's history as part of American spirits likely had more to do with ease of manufacturing than anything having to do with product quality. Pretty sure they weren't sanitary tig welding 316 in the early 1900s. What else were you going to use back then? Cast Iron? Tin? Brass? Lead? Copper was cheap and durable. All the same reasons it's carried through as part of moonshine practice today. How many of us can join two pieces of stainless at home? Probably not many. How many can sweat a joint? Give me 5 minutes and a few bucks at Big Box Mart and I can do it.

Now, It's become engrained in the culture, part of the history.

grim

You could probably argue the same going all the way back to the Romans and Greeks.

Sunshine

push again... ;)

grim

Copper is a crutch for those who can't manage fermentation properly.

Bam, I said it again.

Kapea

Fermentationist!