Blend-a-bon

captainshooch

I have been tossing around this crazy idea about a blended bourbon but not via the usual blending methods but rather fermenting and distilling each grain individually, tempering to barreling strength (60%) and then blending the white dog from each grain in the proportions needed to match a particular grain bill for the particular product you are attempting to make.

For example: Lets say you like Bourbon "x" which is made with a grain bill of 70% corn, 20% rye and 10% barley. Instead of making one mash with all 3 grains you would mash each grain individually, ferment and distill then combine white dog from each grain at a 70-20-10 ratio.

If this works you could, in theory, be able to adjust the ratios at will rather the by creating a whole new mash bill.

Other grains for this could be wheat, millet, oats, etc.

If I try this I plan on using enzymes for the conversion of all the grains except for the barley.

Has anyone ever tried something like this? Any input or suggestions?

bentstick

Never seen any post on it,but makes sense to me!

Smaug

Conceptually I really like this idea.

Some bourbons are so hot on the front and others (like Four Roses) can be borderline too smooth for those that prefer a bit more texture.

This reminds me of something that Derek Bell would do.

Manofconstantsorrow

I like the Idea as well and think I may implement too if I ever get home long enough to get my new still proved out. It should lend for faster recipe development. A+ @captainshooch

CothermanDistilling

I would think you would want to cut anything aged in charred oak with the absolute heart of the hearts... that carbon and wood are used for a reason...

Fastgreg

Forty Creek Whisky in Ontario is made as 'single malts' where each grain is mashed, fermented, distilled and matured separately. They use rye, corn and barley. Not quite what you were considering as they age each separately and then blend.

Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co

Sounds a lot like the whole idea of making a "botanical library" so to speak and blend to make gins. No reason why the concept can't apply here, your mash is obviously a very important part of flavour and mouth feel. I intend to do the botanical thing and this doesn't seem like a bad experiment either!

Smaug

@Fastgreg said: Forty Creek Whisky in Ontario is made as 'single malts' where each grain is mashed, fermented, distilled and matured separately. They use rye, corn and barley. Not quite what you were considering as they age each separately and then blend.

Yeah this thread is making me thirsty.

Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co

@smaug that's why we make coffee shine, you're supposed to drink it in the morning ~O)

captainshooch

Thank you for all the input guys. Any suggestions on yeast?
Not sure if I am going to age first, then blend, but I am leaning towards blending first then aging as it would come closer to the actual process. I am getting thirsty as well @Smaug
@Fastgreg , Can be done both ways if I make enough

CothermanDistilling

come to the ADI conference... Corsair had the botanical library for you to smell and taste...

punkin

I would heartily recommend Triticale as one of the grains you choose to play with if you can get it. Would be a great conterpoint.

It has a wonderful spiciness that i never found in anything else. Oats were also outstanding in the oily slickness they brought, the opposite side of the spectrum, but a nice integration i'd think.

I think it's a fantastic idea and will make for some unique whiskeys.

Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co

I think you had it right with blending them unaged. Custom design the guts and put it all in one barrel. I think you'd have a little more consistency

I don't do ADI. Bills opinions are, well, questionable in my questionable opinion haha. That's cool what Corsair did though, I think comparing techniques and their outcome of each botanical would be a great learning experience

MikeAggie

the possibilities that this could create is genius, but do we eliminate some flavour carry over that you can't achieve with post blending. I can't wait to see the results. @captainshooch brilliant concept.

brewsmith

I have though of this idea before, and would love to put it to trial once I get some of my other projects put down. I suspect one of the biggest differences that would arise here vs a mixed grain mash are the fermentation compounds that are produced by the yeast. A mixed grain ferment should have a broader range of sugars, complex starches, proteins etc. many of which form the basis for different esters, phenols and other flavour compounds produced by the yeast. This is not to say that this method is any better or worse than the traditional, just that this is a key difference. While I don't have any specific yeast recommendations, the use of different strains across different grains opens up yet another realm for experimentation that doesnt seem to have been explored at length

Sadi

And perhaps a fruit base like apples or grapes could be added to the blend. Which might make it more interesting.

It is a very good idea @captainshooch =D>

captainshooch

Thanks again. I plan to ferment on the grain and the distillation with a 4" CD using only 2 plates maybe 3, and only usind the deph to compress and remove fores, maybe a bit of the heads, but then deph off and continue pot style for the collection.

Prolly a good idea to make some cuts to be able to use mostly the hearts from each grain but without excluding the tasty late heads and early tails.

I can distill on the grains but most likely will not.

I am still debating on yeast.

captainshooch

@punkin found triticale locally, but I need help on mashing it, never mess with it at all. Would like to know it's potential 85% extraction ppg. and optimum sacchar. temp

Millet, a lil research tells me white gives better yield than red, but I have no accurate ppg or sacchar temp for it either.

Yeast: I will be using Prestige American Whiskey with AG.

I can see a full day's worth in the shed coming soon :D

captainshooch

More googling yields sacch. temps for millets bet 130-175F, check....onwards.

punkin

It's been years since i played with it mate, but i was using high temp enzymes, so cooking for a while and adding enzymes at near boiling.

captainshooch

Thanks Punkin...might leave that one out for a while until I learn a bit more about it. I'll be using SebStar and Sebamyl, have worked great for me in the past. I also have Sebflo, in case them oats don't want to cooperate.

I am on the road for a while but I will try to start this in a week or so.

dellae

I have being doing it this way for a while now. All white is stored @~90% then broken down to ~60-65% for blending/oaking. However, my taste sense is pretty useless so I can't tell much difference. I have some 3 year Barley white left (85%) and it is very smooth but I prefer the added flavour of the oak.

dellae

@captainshooch said:

Millet, a lil research tells me white gives better yield than red, but I have no accurate ppg or sacchar temp for it either.
:D

I did White Millet the same as I do corn (enzymes) and it worked fine. Thought it was a good candidate for Vodka because of its lack of flavour depth. From my research ppg=25. Price of it here in NZ (NZ$20/kg makes it a waste of time. I did a post with pics over @AD on millet, I think some others did as well.

captainshooch

Thank you @dellae, I'll go and have a look. I think I am going to hold off a bit on the millet and triticale and work on the others first and then take it rom there.

dad

I have a jug each of white Oats, Rice and Corn AG's saved. Not quit a library!

I like the oats mouth feel so much almost anything gets an ounce of oats added to a gallon during oaking. An ounce doesn't sound like much. But if I gave you a shot with and without, you'd know which was which. It's like instant maturity...

I can see the same with say rye...a little could make a huge dif.

Millet is the next addition.

grim

Interested in your oat comment, can you expand?

Millet is very light and subtle, it would easily get lost, especially with a rye. I loved Kovals millet single barrel, but it was a very differnt kind of whiskey, light, subtle, fruity, floral. Almost a kind of rummy flavor actually.

An unaged millet has been on my to do list for a long time.

brewsmith

All these gin threads lately have got me really liking the idea of creating botanical 'libraries', seems like this is an interesting technique to apply to whiskey as well, and seems to put more emphasis on the blending side than grain bill, while also making the distiller more familiar with each grain's character individually.

Being a brewer, I am much more familiar with mashing and running off rather than fermenting on grain. For those really gummy beta-glucan rich grains like oats and rye, how are people separating the liquid portion, or is everyone distilling on grain for these?

dellae

@brewsmith - Everything I do is fermented on the grain, wait till it settles and then pump over to the kettle(electric) and run. Oats, corn, rye, millet, rice, and a bunch of random stuff. Never had a problem with burning.

captainshooch

It has started and I have the corn, barley, wheat and rye soaking overnight for a grinding and mashing tomorrow. The oats I got are flaked so no need to soak/or gring..ready to go. Hope to have all mashed in tomorrow and then a week of ferming and settling before the runs. I am excited and look forward to the results of this loony idea. :P

captainshooch

Wow, a long day in the shed today. Started at 6am and just now "maybe" done for the day, 6 pm ATM. Started at 6 am preheating water for the corn and while waiting managed to run all others grains thru the mill..my back hurts #-o

All washes are 50# of grains and 25 gallons of water.

By 9 am I had the corn mashed in and all the grains ready to work with.

Because the grains had been soaked overnight, the usual 0.17F temp loss per pound of grain went right out the window with more like 0.7 F loss per pound.

Pretty much followed a standard protocol of heating the water to 190-200F then adding to the grains, settling around 150F at which time I added 20ml of Seb Star, followed by a 45 minute rest, then added PH 5.2 buffer and 20 ML of Seb Amyl at 145 F except for the oats which I hydrolyzed with 10 gals at 140F plus 20 ml of Seb Flo, then after 45 minutes added the rest of the water 15 gals and 20 ml of Seb Star, then waited 45 minutes and added PH 5.2 buffer and 20ML of Seb Amyl.

ATM as follows:(with corrections for temp)

Corn 101F OG 1.026
Rye 111.3F OG 1.032
Barley 114.4F OG 1.037
Wheat 1- 125F OG 1.030
Wheat 2- 116.7F OG 145 ( I did 2 batches of wheat cause I like it a lot)
Oats 114.8F OG 1.048

Hydrolyzation is prolly complete and now working on saccharification to complete.

Likely to take a stroll back to the shed after dinner and check all with Iodine, check temps and check one more time for OG. :bz
Whew! #:-S

Manofconstantsorrow

@captainshooch In the fashion of long horn fog horn "I say, I say Son you been a busy little beaver. Good job Cap which I was home to play, you guys make me jealous. 8-X