My Steam Generator

CothermanDistilling

the top line is for pressure/level balance, it keeps the water levels in the two containers the same, without it, the heated side would be filled with steam and the element would burn up...

Telluride

It heats it up, but not enough to cause the water in the still well or source tank to boil

grim

Yeah without it, the level side would develop a vacuum above the water level, trapping the water in the vessel. It's like the game where you submerge a glass of water, flip it over, and pull it up bottom side first, the water won't drain out of the glass until some air is allowed to displace the water at the top.

This is a really interesting approach to isolating the level control. If a float valve isn't reliable, you could use a boiler water level indicator, it's basically a conductivity probe on a long rod that would fit in through the top.

Smaug

@jbierling said: Wouldn't water flow by it entering the source tank and by the lower pressure in the generator tank? Wouldn't steam also go from the generator to the source tank heating it up?

Maybe so but I like what I see as a good fail safe. I do not see the design as illustrated performing necessarily any better better with out the return in place. I like it IMO.

punkin

There's no arguing with results.

Telluride

I looked into the boiler water level indicator, i just had problems wrapping my head around the wiring of it, this was a bit easier for me to understand and figure out, i simply have the liquid level switch attached directly through the solenoid valve, the switch is able to handle over 10x the load that the valve uses, and if it needed more i could always use a small 5 amp ssr with a ac/dc converter with the switch. So far i have had no issue, and thats with running constantly for 4 brews in a day, 150 gallon brews.

FullySilenced

and... there is a float and valve that limits fluid levels i am sure and the water pressure is higher than the tank pressure..

Lloyd

Outstanding @Telluride.
Its giving me ideas. Starting with a 4" tee as the base so the element guard can be mounted in the horizontal position and provide a natural inlet for the water. A pair of 4" pipe hangers to secure it.
The still well attached to the boiler section with pipe hangers, too.

Sorry for the quick and dirty sketch...

Telluride

Do you think with the still well/source tank being directly above the boiler could affect the temp of the still well more so than the offset thats used on my setup? Only reason i ask is ive used the liquid level switch inside the boiler as well as right next to the boiler which resulted in boiling that doesnt work with the liquid level switch, it bounces around and floods the setup

Cambo

I'm feeling a new Still Dragon/ "Steam Dragon" kit in the works. Other then the means to strain the fermented grain it is no brainer end all solution to all grain mashing equipment. Along with a waiver that gets signed when bought. :))

grim

I'll kick the elephant in the room. This isn't at all legal in the US, is it?

Telluride

My county fire and building really liked it, the blow off valve and gauge represented enough safety elements to satisfy them...

Lloyd

A layer of insulation should solve that should it happen and improve overall efficiency.
From a manufacturing view, if the two chambers could be equal - or a least level at the top - then a manifold could be more easily created.

Telluride

I like it!

Lloyd

Still doodling.

Telluride

I also really like the steam dragon naming

CothermanDistilling

and I can rally for my triple EGK with 4 elements in a 4" TC ;-)

FullySilenced

Teflon gaskets only? Heavy duty clamps?

Myles

Well it certainly is an improvement over heating a big keg of water. However it depends what volume of steam you require. If you only need how much you can get from a keg, the simpler (but bulkier) option could be good enough. That said I do like it.

Drunkas

I would think from a safety point in Australia they might have problems with it not that I think it is unsafe. It looks like you have done your research @Telluride probably the one thing you would want to work out of the system is the triclamps and ferals. I wonder if you could use some sort of compression copper o ring to replace the normal rubber o rings we use. Then you might get it passed the Oz safety people. But then you would still need a bloody steam boiler operators ticket I would think in Australia.
I want one of these setups. One more thing to add to the list thanks Telluride.

grim

Steam pressure gauges should be attached to the boiler through a pigtail siphon to protect the gauge, this applies also to any pressure limit controls in place.

You'll need a low water cutoff on the main boiler housing, this is separate from the level control feeder valve and liquid level sensor.

Some other things might be a high pressure limit control (secondary safety), and the standard boiler operating controls (power, element control, safety interlocks with the high pressure limit and low water cutoff). It would be much easier to use commonly available boiler control electronics here, as they'll all be certified for use in that environment.

I believe a secondary way of determining water level is necessary, this may require a gauge glass on the boiler as well.

Blowdown? Unless you want to break this apart to clean.

Some feed water pre-treatment might be useful to prevent scale and buildup. If even just a good particulate filter.

Realistically, we are attempting to build a low pressure steam boiler. Something that would generally be looked at as a highly regulated affair. With all sorts of engineering and inspections and regulatory bodies involved. Calling this a steam generator, or anything else omitting the word "boiler" doesn't make it not a boiler.

I'm not trying to piss on the picnic here, and not saying this wouldn't work as well as any other steam boiler, but that you'll probably want to take proper precaution.

Smaug

Can we talk about the engineering for the condensate return? Well,,,, yall talk and I'll listen.

Lloyd

Totally agree @grim, safety first and foremost.
Steam generators are dangerous and live steam is a powerful force. Anyone that feels uncomfortable with this should listen to their feelings.

If anything can possibly fail, it is prudent to always plan that your body is never in the path of that failure.

Most of us have never used steam heating, including me, so for us this is just theory and conjecture - another toy.

CothermanDistilling

rhetorically, how does an espresso machine get away with a boiler for the frothing of milk? Which is, incidentally, what I use to clean/sanitize beer lines in kegerators... This is really closer to that than it is to a commercial steam boiler.... I am sure if you had the same safety systems they did, or more, you would be fine... idiots will always make 'idiot-proof' a non-attainable state.... we are already playing with steam, and some idiot could put a valve on a still, close it, and make it go boom...

grim

Sure, more than espresso machines, you have steam saunas, clothes irons and steamers, pressure cookers, espresso machines, teapots, new fancy ovens that inject steam to keep your meat moist, new clothes dryers that inject steam to keep your clothes from being wrinkled, etc etc.

But when something explodes, and there is damage or a injury to a worker or the public, that is settled in a court of law, and in a court of law, the device we are discussing is steam boiler, period. And it will be argued that it was unlicensed, unpermitted, uninspected, and home made. You will also find that your insurance company will become your worst enemy. You will also quickly find out if operating an unlicensed and uninspected steam boiler in a commercial capacity is a misdemeanor crime (look it up, it is in many jurisdictions across the US). Even beyond civil, there might be criminal/gross negligence, and words like reckless endangerment will be thrown out.

My comments are purposefully written in such a way as to instill fear in a reader that might not be so skilled as to be able to build and operate this kind of device safely.

Read the story on the Sainsbury Cafe Explosion in UK, it looks as if the commercial coffee business is quickly moving towards accepting regulation under UK steam and boiler safety law.

The coffee machine 'bomb': Scalding horror as freak explosion in Sainsbury's café injures 15 @ Daily Mail Online

I am a DIY'er by heart, I've built lots and lots of crazy things in my day, I should probably be waving my finger at myself just the same.

Just be safe guys, we don't want to read about you in the news paper. Remember, it's not when things operate correctly that you have problems, it's when they fail.

Drunkas

it really falls under the same category as electricity.

Telluride

Alright all good points to bring up. The temp of the steam is directly correlated to the pressure, so at 250 degrees you have 15 psi. There is no possible way that if the temperature of the steam is 250 degrees that the pressure could ever be anything more than 15 psi, given your altitude(mine is slightly more due to me being at 8750 ft above sea level). I pull my temperature readings for the PID off the top where the steam exits, this is also where the blow off valve and pressure gauge is located a pigtail siphon could easily be added for the pressure gauge. As far as pressure ratings of the tri clamp components go, the weakest link would be the 4" hinge and wing nut clamps, these specific components have a pressure rating of 125 psi at 250 degrees, which is 8.3 times the amount of pressure that we are creating at that exact temperature. If wanted a visual water level indicator could easily be added, especially with the way lloyd has it drawn out. Now a low water cutoff could be something that I could see adding, but I will explain this later with the previous espresso machine knowledge that I have. As far as a high pressure limit control, this is already controlled within the PID controller, if the temperature gets above the set 250 degrees(15 psi), the signal going to the SSR shuts off power to the element. I still manage a bar, and we do have an espresso machine, if you want something that is the anti idiot proof, then this thing is it. We don't call in the guy that fixes it anymore, because he charges $200 just to show up and most the time he doesn't do anything. What typically happens in our espresso machine is it either floods and fails to produce steam, or the solenoid valve that adds the water burns out, fails or has a switching issue and the system goes dry. We have yet had to replace the element and our system has gone dry multiple times. As far as a water filtering set up, I have multiple whole house filters for all of the water used in our distillery. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be concerned about safety, but in a low pressure system(15psi and less) setup like this, I am not concerned one bit, I would be more concerned about a keg set up that someone just plugs in the element with no control over temp/pressure and lets it go.

Drunkas

I dont know if that was directed at you @Telluride or me

grim

Mine were just general nanny rants, not directed at anyone in particular.

Telluride

Well @Drunkas I'm the only one that is actually using the setup so I should probably have answers to any questions asked if I was taking the proper precautions. Remember guys I have a large engineering firm at my disposal that helps with design and looks over everything, and all they do is wastewater retreatment and fuel ethanol production so none of this is too far off of what they typically deal with, just on a much smaller scale.