StillDragon® Community Forum

Welcome!

Be part of our community & join our international next generation forum now!

In this Discussion

8" Crystal Dragon R&D...

1234579

Comments

  • edited December 2015

    @FloridaCracker said: How do you do that and still stack heads? Or fores? Seems like they would be smeared over a longer time/volume.

    The the dephlegmator will squeeze it down better than a pot still. Can still make cuts. Have to think like a pot stiller.

    And yes, part of that smear is what makes for less insipid spirits. Just takes a bit longer in the barrel.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • edited December 2015

    @CothermanDistilling said: and is noticable less action on the plates and it is at 85% on the hydro If I go much above 75C, I lose controllability since we are at the vapor temp..

    Not following this one, I would think you would have a long way to go before you lose controllability. You are measuring coolant output temp no? That means given stratification, the lower part of your dephleg is going to be cooler? Assuming you are still maintaining flow at that set point, you've got to be stripping heat from the vapor stream and driving condensation (although less of it). Or - is this a surface area/delta t situation, where the smaller the delta between vapor temp and dephleg, the less potential heat transfer ... etc etc.

    With the 12", the re-equalization of the 4 plates is significantly slower than what I would have imagined. Realistically, you are talking a good 4-5 minutes to evaluate the impact of the dephleg set point change - and this is after the new SP is hit, which at the higher temps takes another few minutes.

  • @grim said: We have no problems with 4 plates. Hearts start above 160, finish below, average is below 160. The 160 number is the proof of the total collected distillate per Dunbar.

    thanks for the verification...

  • edited December 2015

    The dephleg we are running is pretty big, lots of thermal mass, nearly 5 gallons of water in that thing. Heads start to come off around the 180 mark, no way no how to drop that. Even with the dephleg pump off, there is enough thermal mass cold to induce 100% reflux on startup, and have it continue for quite a while. Even if you push it hard, you'll still get considerable reflux for at least 20-30 minutes (my ambient indoors is low 60s right now).

    So, really, there is no option BUT to compress heads, hence the 180. Anything else would require pre-heating the dephleg I think.

  • One other interesting observation when you do push it very hard - wondering if anyone else has noticed the same - boiling on the bottom plate. I am not talking about vapor through the bubble caps, but actual bubble formation, especially on the tops of the caps, but ocassionaly on what would have to be hot spots on the plates.

    Or am I just noticing the obvious?

  • @grim said: Not following this one, I would think you would have a long way to go before you lose controllability. You are measuring coolant output temp no? That means given stratification, the lower part of your dephleg is going to be cooler? Assuming you are still maintaining flow at that set point, you've got to be stripping heat from the vapor stream and driving condensation (although less of it). Or - is this a surface area/delta t situation, where the smaller the delta between vapor temp and dephleg, the less potential heat transfer ... etc etc.

    few things going on.. I am controlling just above the middle, but also measuring the output set at 75-77c, the output is 177F...

    1. we are near the vapor temp of good low wines in the kettle, 180-185, and you cannot go over that, it defies the laws of physics, right? physically impossible to get the cooling water warmer than the vapor temp of the stuff passing through it, and the top plate probably has a lower vapor temp than the kettle since it is higher alcohol...
    2. I am near the lower limit of the valve, I have the PID controller set to not go below 7.0mA on the 4-20mA scale, as below that there is no flow, but even a trickle on the 1/2" valve and my tiny pump can induce quite a bit of reflux.

    it does take me a few minutes after a temp change on the rc pid (a little less time needed when changing boiler power), but that gives me time to see what is happening, and 2-5 min is not an issue ont he grand scale for me... I checked and my P was still 30, I changed it to 20 and it overshot bad, took back to 25, still overshot a bit, but can live with it... probably back to near 30 next run..

  • edited December 2015

    Yeah we're running tomorrow, I'm going to push proportional band higher to see if that gets us where we need to be. We left off with p-band at 12, we still have oscillation on sp change. Our Johnson we're using now is one of the faster ones, it's 30 seconds swing.

    Agree on the trickle - the large dephleg uses incredibly little water. Our recirculation pump is set at 4 gallons per minute, and the 3 way valve sits about 25% open - so dephleg running about 1 gallon per minute of ~60f coolant. That's on the low setting of the 3 speed pump.

  • 60f coolant, that might as well be the arctic circle to us here in FL! I am thinking either proportional needle valve fi there is such a thing, or a 1/4-1/8" proportional ball valve for running and the larger one for full reflux...

  • edited December 2015

    Actually, you should have an easier time since your incoming coolant is somewhat tempered compare to mine. I'd need significantly less flow with 60F than you would need with say, 80F, all things equal. My valve is massive in comparison - 1.25".

    With the 1/2", there aren't many smaller options unless you go solenoid.

    What about reducing the flow rate/pressure. You've got a big feed pump if I recall. The readout on my circulation pump display is 4gpm, and the three way will bypass some of that.

  • Yeah, choice is not there, but on the bright side, everyone and their brother now has motorized ball valves on eBay...

    Our pump is just tad more powerful than an 809/815.

    I need to bypass the PC from the flowmeter to tell actual use by just the RC... they are combined now... but basically 1-2 gpm per 10,000 watts is the seat of the pants number used by either or both... and I can get down to well below the .4gpm that the 1/2" digiflow flowmeter can read... need a smaller flowmeter, LOL...

    Either way, I can restrict the flow to the point where I think I am losing effectiveness of the plates, which I guess is in line what I am trying to do, but I am trying to suppress heads too...

    also, things did not seem to change much with 2 or three elements on other than takeoff speed, I actually tried all 5 during tails and it was rockin', but the distillate was a bit warm... need that 6-8" condenser with 5 elements

    off topic - I look at the $5-6k whiskey classes, and feel 99% certain that they do not teach you this kind of stuff there... I cannot see them teaching more than "this is the dephlegmator, more water in less distillate passes" and then moving on...

  • that is a screaming deal... maybe if they go cheap until then, i use digiflow

    mine is 1/2", does 0.4 to 6.6 GPM, I max out at 4GPM

    the 3/8 has same .4 minimum

    this one does 0.16 to 2.1 GPM

    1/4" NPT Digiflow Digital Flow Meter count up total Water Gallons GPM 56"cable @ eBay

  • We are using one of the IFM meters for filling the mash tun (totalizing water volume) - really nice unit.

  • @Smaug said: And yes, part of that smear is what makes for less insipid spirits. Just takes a bit longer in the barrel.

    I try to remove all heads. I was under the impression that while they do add considerable flavor, they won't settle down while aging and the hangover factor remains. What I would like is to somehow go from serious reflux down almost to "potstill mode" without completely shutting down the dephleg. I just don't think with this rig that I can go from bubble cap still to pot still on the same run. I have tried fucking around with the water and the power, all with bad results.

  • Yeah when squeezing for heads compression it's tough to purity levels back down.

    But you can squeeze for your foreshot,,,,and most of your heads. Then kill your heat to drain the plates and start all over with minimal flow to the dee-fleg. Wouldn't take much at all to bring the system back on line......Just sayin.

    You gotta come back by and sample some rums that have been run with varying degrees of interpretation so I can show you what I mean. Plus we can catch lunch,,,,my treat.

    Sides, you haven't seen the new shop.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • I am definitely overdue for a visit.

    I will try the shut down method on my next rum run and will report my findings. Almost hesitant to change anything since I am really enjoying what is coming out. Now that I am making a damn nice drink, I will shoot for more complexity and see what happens.

    The problem with visiting the new shop is the whole kid in the candy store thing....

  • so 2 years ago, back on page 5, it was conceived, I am a bit of a slacker, but here it is all ready to put into service... The StillDragon 8" product condenser with tank stand and installed danfoss cooling water valve... I expect to be able to put out water within 1 or 2 degrees of the vapor temp and have distillate at the cooling water temp...

    image

    image.jpg
    600 x 800 - 128K
  • Sorry we didn't get the temp probe accommodation right for you. Looks great otherwise.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • Good Lord. I don't even want to know what that condenser weighs :-O

  • edited February 2018

    Maybe 80 -100lbs FC......empty.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • oh, they did not skimp on the wall thickness, it is 3mm I think!

    @smaug - I am still extremely happy, and happy to help make the next one that gets ordered come perfect for that customer!

    I need to do the math on the heights to use one of these tanks for the column stand so it can drain back to the kettle...

  • OK, Condenser is a monster at cooling, as expected...

    My little pump circulating 75 degree water in a 250 gal tote is cooling 27.5kw (5x 5500w elements) with the danfoss pretty much wide open at 2gpm and raising the temp to 150F... distillate is ice cold, as is outside of condenser as far us as I can reach it...

    Next test will be to see how much fresh water it uses per hour if I have it putting out at 170-180F to inside of tank (FYI - @smaug - tank is 70 gal, 73 gal to top of 4" fitting)

    This thing will shorten my days, the only thing I would change is have the drain moved 180 degrees and be in front under the parrot... I could see ordering another stand just like it to set a column on...

    image

    image.jpg
    600 x 800 - 135K
  • edited March 2018

    @cotherman, can you post water usage for spirit run speed when you get a chance please? Or is that spirit run speed?

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • I did a 2nd pot still spirit run with low wines and feints through my franken-helmet with 2 elements, 11kw, and it used .35gpm and raised water from 70-170F* (see note)

    When I switched to tails, I sat what the heck and turned on all 5 elements and grinned from ear to ear ;-) that is the 2pgm at 100f rise in temp...

    Compared to my old setup, 4"x1meter and a 2" long condenser below it, plumbed in series, I ran about .5-.6gpm for 2 elements. my danfoss was acting up lately, it is rated 25-65, and since I have it on the outlet, I am exceeding that rating... I have the danfoss on the new 8" column barely on... (not calibrated, but I would say 30c it is doing nearly all the heavy lifting in the top 1 foot of the condenser... )

    a side benefit of the probe in the side is that I cannot reach 'runaway' by setting the danfoss to a temp that is above that vapor temp, say cranking it down to get outlet water at 180f while doing neutral... no coolant would flow... not good..

    *note (I have to put actual temp thermowell in, I put probe on outside of ss hose nipple and velcro'd the crap out of it, but it seems to work...)

  • Franken-helmet :D ..........................nice.

  • OK, copper helmet cherry is broken... Did a beer stripping run, 100 gal 6%.. at 11kw was .36gpm 75in-150out (thermowell now inserted into exit water path)

    Went to 8250 on those elements and kicked 2 more on about the same, so 16.4kw total, and it was using .76gpm with a 75 degree rise.. I will start pushign the outlet temp higher, I have a 50kbtu fan-radiator on it before it hits the outside tote, higher delta T means more efficiency..

    used a HX setup to drain the boiler and recover the heat into the next Batch of beer, batch 2 started at 10:15am...

    image

    image.jpg
    600 x 800 - 126K
  • What was your collection speed?

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • guesstimating just a bit shy of 40l/hr limited by not wanting to scorch the wash... Researching lower watt density, high wattage setups that will work good for us.

    Of interest may be the correlation to input coolant temp with the probe placement.. I did three 100gal strips yesterday, and third strip my 250 gallon tote was providing 90 degree water, the flow rate was up to 2gpm... the danfoss was attempting to get that same temp at the probe location but warmer inlet water skewed it... I gave it a little crank down and was putting out 191 water (valve was at 2 of 5, so 25-65, that would be about 35c) vapor temp was ~200F, assume with a neutral run, of 172, outlet water might be 180F...

  • 40 LPH is nothing to sneeze at with an 8"

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

Sign In or Register to comment.