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Dash 1 Hybrid Configuration for 65-70% ABV Bourbon Run

Hey guys,

First of all hi to everyone, my name is Carl and I was hoping that someone with a little experience might be kind enough to lend some advice to a noob. I am quite new to distilling and I have managed to get myself hooked from the get go! I love it!

I recently bought the 4" Dash 1 with four plates and reflux column to complete what I believe to be a fantastic hybrid still for a hobby distiller. I have had two runs through it so far, an all grain mash for vodka which was a complete failure for my first run but taught me a great deal about mashing and general operation of this beautiful still, and a second bird watcher sugar mash which produced about 2L of 93%, quite happy with myself at this stage.

I plan on attempting my first bourbon run and just wondering if anyone could help with advice for a good configuration for producing a 65-70% ABV?

Currently my still is setup in hybrid mode with all four plates and a 500 mm packing column packed with 6 stainless steel scrubbers. I was thinking to just remove my scrubbers and having a crack with different temp setting. Currently I have 2 x 2400 w elements (one with power control) and what I did for my last neutral run was cranked at full heat until second from the top plate was bubbling then switching off one element and reducing to 75% power on the other, things worked pretty well and I had a nice stream running and collected 250 ml fores, 1000 ml heads, 1500 ml hearts and the rest tails which was pretty spot on for the content calculation.

I will be mashing a bourbon recipe (see below, any opinions would be welcome) and I'm just a little unsure what the best config would be. I don't want to scorch the run so I will be fermenting off the grain and allowing to clear as much as possible before I siphon for the run.

Would it be OK to run just without packing? Will I be able to obtain my target ABV this way? Or should this be setup in a pot still type config and run that way? Any advice would be very well appreciated!

5.5 kg Fine Crushed Corn Feed (free from nastiness and other grains etc)
1.8 kg 2 Row Malted Barley
1.0 kg Malted Rye or Light Malted Wheat (not sure yet)
1.0 kg Raw Sugar
0.5 kg Rice Husks
2 tbsp Bakers Yeast (open to other suggestions but told this was good
         for bourbon taste provided I aim for 8% alcohol)
35-40L Water depending on OG
  • 5.5 kg of crushed corn in brew bag placed into 50L mash tun
  • boil 15L and add to mash tun
  • cool to 65°C and add packet of glucoamalyse and 1 ml of dry enzyme (I believe to the beta) to help make mash more viscous
  • cover and leave to sit over night

Next Day

  • add remaining water and bring to the boil for 1 and 1/2 hours and leave to cool to 65°C
  • add remaining grain and insulate to keep at temp for 1-2 hours for conversion
  • once all starch conversion is completed, allow to cool until bearable to handle by hand
  • drain all liquid and squeeze bag as much as possible
  • wash grain with additional 500 ml of warm-hot water and repeat squeezing
  • pitch yeast at 28°C and keep at temp until fermented

This is a recipe that I have come up with based on the study of multiple recipes, all criticism is welcome as I am quite new and keen as mustard to learn :)

P.S. Yes, probably should be playing with a few more tried and tested recipes first however I love to experiment and the trial and error is all part of the fun of this hobby for me!

Thanks for reading, I look forward to reading any responses!!!!

Comments

  • Welcome to our extraordinary community, @carljohnyench. Feel right at home here among us, I hope you don't mind me occasionally reworking postings to enhance readability by applying some Markdown formating magic. ;)

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  • I would suggest staying with birdwatchers or something really easy and inexpensive for the first 10 runs or so ... you will have a ton of real life learning experience in that time frame... then you can hop, jump or just walk and step on the bourbon/moonshine/sour mash train... baby steps and a little time to get the wobble out or your walk...

    Happy Stillin,

    FS

  • If your goal is bourbon i'd suggest (as always) starting with UJSM for a while to learn the still and get some stock up. Once you know how it all should work you can switch from simple, cheap bulk to an allgrain recipe and torture yourself trying to cook corn.

    Your collection figures look like very wide cuts from a potstill, and the hearts cut should be a much higher % of your total.

    For bubbler runs people will usually work on about 10-15% heads and foreshots and 20-30% or so of tails. So add your total available alcohol up (40l of 10% wash would be 4l at 100%) and work out from there. I get .8l heads, 1l tails and 2.2l hearts.

    Power would generally be considered a nice slow run at 2400 watts, so try putting the controller on your second element, have one on full and start with the other off and gradually turn it up a little. 2400 -3000w seems to be pretty much what the electric guys are running, happy to be corrected if i have the wrong idea.

    Great start and as you say it's a very addictive hobby. :D

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  • Hi @carljohnyench and welcome. Great intro post.
    As usual, FS and Punkin are spot on... learn with the easy stuff - sugar washes - and slowly work up from there.
    Ruining an all grain mash will break your heart but a sugar wash doesn't hurt very much.
    UJSSM is like instant gratification compared to all grain.
    Your post suggests that you certainly have the skills and equipment to mash anything that you want.

    4 bubble plates, without any packing, will want to produce about 84 to 90% ABV so you'll either need to remove a plate or run with a bit more power and bit less reflux to reach your 65 - 70% ABV target.

  • edited July 2014

    @carljohnyench welcome.

    I have to agree with FS & @punkin to stay on your Learner plates for a while before jumping into All grain. Doing TPW & UJSM washes will allow you to learn not just fermentation practices but also how to get the most out of your Dash. Try running UJSM without the packed extension ie just 4 plates - that'll get you around 90% with flavor. if that's too high for you, remove a plate on your next run - you can leave the bubble Tee in place so your parrot stays at the right height

    Don't forget to allow time for the column to equalize once up to temp ie put it into full reflux for 30+ minutes before taking fores off; collect in multiple small jars; air for a day or 2 before making cuts.

    have a read of the SD manual for a bunch of other ideas - I've heard it's pretty good :))

    I had a lot of all grain beer making experience before trying AG bourbon. I have to say corn is a whole different beast - my 100l brew kettle still has a heap of charcoal stuck to the bottom from the last time I tried to cook corn on a gas burner (I have since made a steam generator).

    As to your mash regime there are a few things I would query eg:

    1. adding 15l boiling water to 5.5kg corn & leaving it to sit won't do a lot apart from make a nice thick glue.
    2. Check the parameters of your gluco. yours may work at more than 65*C
    3. why boil again on day 2?
    4. you will need to raise your temp after adding the grain on day 2
    5. good luck with the squeezing it is a PITA.
    6. consider fermenting on the grain & squeezing once fermentation stops - conversion will continue (slowly) & the wash will be thinner post fermentation than before which makes squeezing a little easier. Alternately squeeze it out & use the "spent" grain as the basis of a UJSM wash - it will still contribute gravity & flavor.
    7. why the sugar? if you are going AG you shouldn't need it - unless you use the "spent" grain for UJSM in which case you get 2 washes from the 1 lot of grain ;-)

    Just to repeat myself, don't try & run before you can walk, you have some great kit to use but need to learn not only how to operate it but how to feed it. Whilst your dash doesn't have any moving parts, there are so many variables in the end to end process that all need to be understood & either eliminated or controlled in order to not only maximize your output but also consistently obtain a quality product.

    have fun

  • edited July 2014

    For starters, it's probably easier to work with all-malt than jump right into bourbon - just go with a single malt barley. Once you get the hang of gelatinization and saccharification at lower temperatures, adding the cereal cooking aspect of corn will be much easier.

    An all-malt recipe will also take out the complexity of using enzymes correctly, you don't need them. I say correctly because to do so you should be monitoring and managing both temp and pH simultaneously. Trying to juggle all these factors isn't difficult once you've done it a few times, but easy to muck up on your first run. Do you have a good pH meter?

    Once you go grain, quit using the sugar. Why? It's going to create unrealistic sense of yield, and allows you to get away with sloppy process. Doing it right means being somewhat meticulous to achieve good conversion rates. Make rum when you make rum, make whiskey when you make whiskey. Shitty yield is a great teacher.

    Also agree with initially fermenting on the grain and separating post-ferment, it is much easier to separate afterwards, and you get the benefit of slightly better yield and flavor (my opinion on the latter).

    Once you want to move to corn, a good intermediate step would be to try using pre-gelatinized corn, this allows you to add corn without the complexity of the cook/boil. You can also use this to skip a day at the gym, since your arms will have a good workout.

    Less can go wrong with a thinner mash, trust me. As you start getting the hang of it, you can push the ratio towards the thicker mashes. Yes you'll deal with lower batch yields initially but lower yield is better than no yield. On the bright side, a failed mash is a great addition to the compost pile.

    To really understand the mashing process, spend time with brewers, not distillers.

    Don't bother with the rice hulls, they won't help you in this situation.

  • @caljohnyench again welcome.

    If your after a bourbon, then all the advice above will get you some real decent drink for a reasonable price and ease of use plus you get to know the dash inside out when running.

    This all grain stuff is just above my pay grade, I simply don't make the time or effort to try it.

    The UJSM type of wash is not too bad at all once you get going and oak for a bit.

    I'm personally trying for a whisky, but keep making Bourbon, one of my mates reckon its like winning the lottery! I'd guess I have close to 100lt+ @ 65% that is ready to drink... well we have been drinking it.

    I use corn, wheat, barley, BUT have since bought supplies of liquid rye malt, normal milled and liquid malt plus other stuff to change my recipe and have no doubt I will get the product that so far has just eluded me.

    I have to thank all the members on here who have assisted with advice or ideas from fermenting, running the still in all sorts of setups and to the aging and oaking process.

    My next step after that is semi auto control system, but no rush.

    Read through the forum and you will pick up heaps of ideas to kick off with.

    Cheers

    Fadge

  • Also skip the warm corn bath, while it can make the cook somewhat easier, it significantly increases the risk of infection of your initial corn mash.

    Adding beta or gluco pre-boil is generally not effective compared to using a high-temperature stable alpha amylase, which would add the benefits of liquifaction, and will not denature until longer in the cooking process.

    Again though, don't bother with the enzymes at this point in time, it's just making this more complex than it needs to be.

  • @grim said:... Once you go grain, quit using the sugar. Why? It's going to create unrealistic sense of yield, and allows you to get away with sloppy process. Doing it right means being somewhat meticulous to achieve good conversion rates. Make rum when you make rum, make whiskey when you make whiskey. Shitty yield is a great teacher. ...

    True words of wisdom. Sugar will spoil you, it did me.
    After many sugar washes I tried a few all grain mashes and the results were dismal by comparison to sugar. So I gave up on all grain. I admit it, I'm addicted to sugar. Shoot me now and get it over with.

    And I still think a sugar wash is the best new distiller learning tool but weening off sugar is damn hard to do. Get 1 liter of booze instead of six because you work your ass off with grain instead of sugar, jeez! Its a bigger learning curve than most can take.
    All grain is like CAD and sugar is like MS Paint. One can be done by a complete idiot (me!) and the other takes skill and learned experience (not me).

    Sugar is concentrated evil, and that's not such a bad thing really, when making cheap booze. But do as i say, not as I do, free yourself from sugar as soon as possible and do as the OP wants to do - all grain goodness. Its the real goal but few of us get there without sugar.

    Oh, @Grim, check with me. Your stuff is starting to arrive. All I could do to lift the pieces! Even the pictures weigh over 40 pounds.

  • hey guys,

    well what can i say, this is an awesome forum for information!

    thank you to all so far that have contributed with information and comments, i will attempt to respond to all.

    not to disrespect any comments in regards to sticking to simple recipe's, i will have to continue to do this mash as i had already started it last night :) i will keep track of my progress here as well as time will permit.

    @punkin, i had made my cuts quite large i fully agree. to elaborate on this, i included heads, hearts and tails from my first grain run which was quite the disaster of a all grain mash but still managed to produce 200ml fores, 500ml heads, 600ml of 90% hearts and 900ml tails, very low yielding but i wanted the practice. this first run was lets just say, not so great tasting neutral so i decided to include the hearts and tails in the sugar run. when i distill this with the sugar mash at 93%, all was good and no taste came through until the ABV came down to 92-91%. once i tasted and this come through (mid way 6th 500ml jar), i thought i would call that last jar and start tails and possibly experiment with 6th jar and making a gin essence. so i guess in reality i took 2 lt of hearts but i didn't include the last.

    i had allowed for 1 hour of equilibrium but this was at 75% power of only one element, do you think that the low power might cause a wider spread of the heads and tails into the hearts?

    maybe i will run at a higher power (3000) next time and see how this effects my output and cuts, what are your thoughts?

    thanks for you input @punkin!

    @Lloyd, thanks mate, i will reconfigure with 3 bubble plates with no packing and play with power output to see how i get on with my ABV in this bourbon mash (if successful) ha ha!

    thanks mate!

    @crozdog, here are a few thoughts behind this madness:

    As to your mash regime there are a few things I would query eg:

    adding 15l boiling water to 5.5kg corn & leaving it to sit won't do a lot apart from make a nice thick glue.

    this method was from another website which i will try to find in my 1500 open tabs :P but what it explained was that placing the 15lt over the corn, allowing to soak for a little down to 65 C then adding the enzymes and allowing to cool/sit overnight would allow the corn to release some of the starch which would be converted allowing for a more viscous and handle-able mash. considering that the idea and practice of converting the starch to sugar thins out the mash, this i guess pre-mashing? made a little sense so i thought i would try. what are your thoughts?

    Check the parameters of your gluco. yours may work at more than 65*C

    this is something that i asked my local brew shop and he advised that both enzymes would be ok at 65 C but not higher, i will continue to research parameters to learn more about this, great suggestion.

    why boil again on day 2? well i did this because i had read in some of the bourbon recipes that the corn could be boiled to assist in extracting the starch efficiently/faster? some also said to boil to 60C let rest then boil to 70C then rest and boil to 90C and rest etc. made sense to boil for a bit to ensure starch was made available so i went with it, what are your thoughts on this?

    you will need to raise your temp after adding the grain on day 2

    ok, well i guess boiling then allowing to rest to 65C, adding remaining grain bill and insulating would cover this? or do you mean to boil off after conversion?

    good luck with the squeezing it is a PITA.

    yeah it sure is!

    consider fermenting on the grain & squeezing once fermentation stops - conversion will continue (slowly) & the wash will be thinner post fermentation than before which makes squeezing a little easier. Alternately squeeze it out & use the "spent" grain as the basis of a UJSM wash - it will still contribute gravity & flavor.

    i considered mashing on the grain but thought it would could get a bit messy and my missus is still a little funny from the first mashing mess i made in the kitchen :P needless to say i do this outside now! what is your preference, on or off the grain fermentation?

    why the sugar? if you are going AG you shouldn't need it - unless you use the "spent" grain for UJSM in which case you get 2 washes from the 1 lot of grain

    this was more or less a backup plan had i not have achieved 8% ABV with my water ratio, i believe this was mentioned in my original post? may have been removed in original edit, not sure.

    thanks @crozdog! great questions and food for thought!

    well guys, i will definitely have a crack at the UJSM after this attempt and i would like to thank everyone for suggestions!

    ****just a little update as i have been working on this mash today

    after partial mash and 24 hour wait the mash was a little sweet and was also quite thinner than the night before, hopefully this has converted some starches. i continued to boil for 1 and 1/2 hour as per plan and have noticed that the mash is not too thick but has a nice yellow starchy look to it and a lovely corn smell? looks much better to me compared to the first porridge :P but again this is new territory for me.

    about to add remaining grain bill and insulate, will check OG in morning!

    still have some decisions to make regarding fermenting on or off the grain, will be sleeping on it!

    cheers guys!

  • Damn you are great. You are mashing when I am washing. Fermenting, as I have very often said, is not my strong suite. Actually I suck at mashing. All of it. From sourcing the grains to crushing (milling) to cooking and sparging and everything else that makes a mash work.

  • edited July 2014

    Pint did a great video here, he is using his own enzymes from his store though and they are high temp so will not work the same with your regular enzymes.

    Mashing 100% corn on an open flame @ AD

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • personally I don't like leaving a nutrient rich broth sitting for long periods - it is asking lots of nasty bacteria to come & setup camp before you can get your friendly yeastie mates on the job.

    Rather than giving you a recipe & telling you to follow it to achieve nirvana, I'd prefer to say that when mashing whilst the basic process is pretty simple, there is a lot you need to understand in order to control the processes, maximize efficiency and get a good outcome. Therefore while I applaud you for jumping straight into AG, I still think that you need to: A - learn to drive your still - TPW & UJSM are great for that B - learn about brewing and controlling fermentation. A lot of people overlook fermentation but all washes need to be fermented before they can be stilled. Learning to make AG beer will teach you lots which you can use to make bourbon. I say this as it is only by understanding & having actually done things & experimented with them can improvements be made. You will also be in a position to overcome issues when they arise as you have that depth of understanding.

    BTW, how did the mash go & where are you based?

  • The easiest gelling procedure I've seen for corn is put the cracked corn in a large pot, boil all the recipe water that will fit in the pot, pour it over the corn, stir a little, insulate the pot with blankets or whatever and let it sit for 3 hours. Overnight works and is good for mashing in the morning. I get around 70% with this. Thanks, Jimbo.

  • edited July 2014

    The problem with cooking corn in a pot isn't that cooking corn in a pot is hard, hell, it's a pot, heat, water, and corn.

    The problem is the beer.

    Because on the first beer, you are still keeping an eye on the pot, and stirring every few minutes. But by the third beer, you are no longer watching or stirring the pot, when this is the most critical time to be mixing. The corn burns, you decide to use it any way, then it's about 9pm, you are on your 7th beer now, and have a good buzz going, you also have 4 friends over and the pork shoulder is nearly done. To hell with waiting until 153 to drop the malt, you just dump everything in, stir it twice for good measure, and head out to the picnic table with a plate full of pork and your 8th beer, and hope for the best.

    Next morning, still in a hangover haze, you log on sd.org and post the inevitable post, "Can't understand what went wrong!?!?, sg sitting at 1.02 and the ferment appeared to stall, HELP!"

    Well, at least this has been MY problem! :))

  • @grim said "The problem is the beer." =)) Both beers!!!, the one in my hand and the one mixed in the porridge that you have to squeeze out into your fermenter!! =))

  • I try to stick to whiskey while mashing... My first corn batch was me, a propane burner, a big spoon and 15 gal of goo. About killed me. It fermented out on the grain after a week and was about 1/2 liquid and the rest pillow case squeezings. My arms hurt for a month. Sure was good, though.

  • Drill and paint mixer from your local construction mega store. Mash paddle is nice for scraping the bottom but if you want to really take that corn apart use the mixer.

    Good justification to buy a new big battery lithium cordless drill while you are there.

    Works great for batch sizes up to 55g.

  • grim, it took just that once to convince me your drill method is better. I stick with the boiling water on cracked corn now days, fermented on the grain and after make a sugarhead with the spent grain. Good stuff.

  • ok so here is how it is going...

    so after i waiting a night, the mash was quite thin and it seemed like the pre mash had done its job as there was a slight sugar taste. i continued to my plan and boiled what was there with 30lt of water for two hours. it thickened up a little but nothing compared to the first mash that i stuffed so i was on the right track. after boiling, i left it to cool to 65c then i added 2kg of 2 row malt and 1 kg of wheat malt. i insulated this for the night and left for the morning.

    in the morning, it was still at 56c (mind you i went to bed at 12 and woke up at 5am) and i took a reading to find that the OG was 1.060, this made me happy. i drained and squeezed and squeezed and squeezed then rinsed with 500ml of hot water and repeated.

    the result was 35 lt of 1.050.... happy days...

    i pitched bakers yeast at 32c and went to work...

    as of this moment, i have a reading of 1.000 and it hasn't finished so i expect to reach 0.990.

    i think that what i have done was ok for a noob?

    crozdog, im at castle hill sydney, if anyone is near me i would love to catch up an pic the brain of some experience! let me know!

    carl.

  • will be running this Sunday on three plates provided it has cleared up ok!

  • Sounds like it worked very well. Congrats.

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